Moved up to 5NL

[Razvan729]

took me some time, 40 days and 60k hands to grind up 100$, but i finally made it.
yesterday was my first day at 5NL, started 4 tables, played 6 at 2nl, and i kept my game the same, just that i lost quickly 2 BI yesterday and another 2 today, its not just this, cause i looked back at my hands and wanst bad play just that he had better hands ( KK all in lost to AA, AK floped KK10, turn blank, river J he jamed i called he showed JJ, and a couple more like this), but the thing is i feel a little strange at 5nl and i saw that theyr opening , calling and 3 bet ranges are wider in any position. i am not quite sure if i should keep my style or i should tighten up a bit for a while.

anyway, any advice from the ones with experience in 5nl and higher about difference from 2nl to 5nl is welcome.

[Wikkiwikki]

Almost no difference IMO. Just play your best game and dont think about style. Just make good decisions based on the info you have. You adjust based on factors at the table not some pre planned strategy.

I did a leak finder session with Carroters and said something like "I've been trying to 3-bet light more" and he jumped my shit with the same advice.

[tomato paste carnage]

Sounds like you ran into a few coolers and attribute it to failing at 5NL. Don't worry about it. Continue playing as solid of a game as you can and you will do fine.

[compudaze]

Shit happens. That's why there's bankroll management. I did really well for 10K hands, but had a big downswing the next 10K hands losing about half of what I made before. Took another 10K hands just to get back where I was. No change in my game the entire time. Shit just happens.

[Donachello]

Every time you move up you'll experience the same thing. Every loss will seem bigger at first because it's like 2x what you would have lost at your previous stake. The important thing is to remember that regardless of the results or the size of your bank roll you have to continue to make the good decisions. If you start being afraid to stick your money in because you don't want to take another hit to your BR it's time to move down.

[NightGizmo]

yesterday was my first day at 5NL, started 4 tables, played 6 at 2nl, and i kept my game the same,

If you feel unsure about the new stake, play less tables than normal. And I don't recommend playing 2NL at the same time -- focus on the new stake.

And Wikkiwikki's reply is dead on accurate. If you know that a villain is calling too wide (or any other type of play that can be exploited), adjust your game to exploit him. If you haven't already, go through spoon's exercises in the digest to better understand how to exploit your opponents tendencies.

[Razvan729]

i think its like Donachello said, loses seem a lot bigger then they use to, maybe its just a psicho thing, lost 4BI in 2 days thats 20$ in 5nl and that seems for now a lot comparing to 4BI in 2nl which is just 8$. i have no worry for my BR, i havent moved up at exactly 100$.

i did it with 130$ so 26 BI for 5nl, i am still over 20 BI for 5nl, if i drop to 80$ i will go down and start grind up 120$ again before going back to 5nl, although i hope i wont have to

but i have seen some diff in 5nl, like flop reraises which in 2nl mean TP usually, but here i bumoed in 2 pairs and sets, some folded some rocked me, i seen that they understand a little better implied odds, cbet flop is usual and they here in 5nl accept it and call it more often then they did in 2nl, so turn reevaluating is more important then 2nl,also calling ranges are wider here, on 5-6 BB preflop raises ( i do that AQso+ and JJ+) i get called often with high connectors so i have to watch out for QJ, KJ, J10, boards when i hold only hold TPTK or overpairs, also i have noticed that betting lines are more liniar , i mean they minraise flop with set, 2pair or draws, its harder to read the opp. the same thing with open raises, they do it more often in MP and LP with connectors and i think my 3 bet should include now AQso+ also, not just JJ+

anyway, i will get used to it, or it just seems now to me a little strange, hopeffuly 40 days from now i will be up to 10NL

[spoonitnow]

In general, I can't recommend playing tables at two different stakes at the same time.

[Razvan729]

i dont know were you got the ideea but i dont play 2 stakes at the same time, i said at 2 nl was playing 6 tables simultanious, and now at 5nl i am playing just 4 for now . sorry if expressed my self wrong .

[spoonitnow]

i dont know were you got the ideea but i dont play 2 stakes at the same time, i said at 2 nl was playing 6 tables simultanious, and now at 5nl i am playing just 4 for now . sorry if expressed my self wrong .

Sorry, seemed like you said you were playing 4 of 5nl with 6 others of 2nl. Carry on.

[Imthenewfish]

well it seemed like 2nl to 5nl was the biggest jump, but that was probably partly because it was the first time i moved up. 5nl is still very beatable, and i highly recommend getting in irc (click spoons signature for help getting there) and posting hands there.

[HarleyGuy13]

Yea you're on the right track just keep your game going pretty much as you have and it will work out. Like many have said each move seems to have a pretty much unexplainable learning curve.

[couriermike]

Congratulations, Razvan. Rock on!

[Dash]

Hey. I experienced exactly the same thing. Grinded (ground?) my way up to $150 or so, jumped to 5NL, then felt like I had to start pulling all kinds of new tools out of the box to keep up with all the 3-betting, c-bet double barrels etc.

So, I think I went too far beyond the basics (read: played like shite) and found myself back at $120 pretty quickly. That's still sufficient roll for 5NL but I'm going to get back to $150 at 2NL just to reinstill the basics. (I'm pretty conservative with BRM).

Also, my first run was all at 6m and now I"m strictly playing FR. At 2NL almost every session is a win, so it's not that I think 5NL is much more difficult, just a lot more chips getting thrown around in general. Next time I won't try to get fancy.

Let me know how it goes on attempt #2 and I'll do the same.

[ggpokergg]

There is no difference imo at all. You might start noticing a SLIGHT difference at NL10, but that will be minor as well. So don't worry about that - people are often more scared when they move up in stakes and this affects their play in some way, as you get used to the new blinds and pot sizes (give it a few days) you're game will match the new stakes well and you will see that if you could beat NL2, then you can beat NL5 just the same. Just be consistent, and don't be afraid to move down the stakes back to NL2 if you feel it will help / your roll goes down significantly.

By the way, congratulations on the $100 in 40 days / 60k hands, not many players at the NL2's have the discipline to do that without giving in to the temptation of trying out the higher stakes. Good start imo.

[Razvan729]

ty for encourages, helps me, at leats my moral does , we will see after 10-15k hands if i manage my self here at 5nl like i did at 2nl. have no hands to post yet but i will

the only notable diff for now is that flop/turn reraises are dangerous here. in 2nl you could call easily with TPTK, but at 5nl these flop/reraises usually mean TPTK is not good, or i just bumped into sets and 2pair in these 3k hands.

[jyms]

It probably should be mentioned that playing with almost 50BI's at 2NL and only 20BI's when we move up to $5NL has a very psychological effect when playing for stacks. You need to make sure you are playing your same game, because it is the same game. The only real difference is what you see when you look in the cashier after a session in terms of BI's.

Also, never consider yourself a particular stakes player. You only play according to BR, just because you moved up, be very aware of your BI's and move down if necessary. Your not a $5NL player or a $10NL player, your goals are much higher. Move down as easily and as untilted as you move up. Nobody successfully moves up to every stake they try. Some go easy, some go horribly wrong.

[Razvan729]

seems this move is horrible lost again today 4BI... overall in 3 days at 5nl started with 26BI i am down to 18 now... the thing is i lost 2BI by my fault, the rest as i rewied hands are variance . i am happy is not bad play, but having negative variance just as i moved is kinda a kick in the nuts , if i drop another 2BI i go back to 2nl and get on 120$ again

[NightGizmo]

the only notable diff for now is that flop/turn reraises are dangerous here. in 2nl you could call easily with TPTK, but at 5nl these flop/reraises usually mean TPTK is not good, or i just bumped into sets and 2pair in these 3k hands.

I noticed you keep saying things like this. You need to stop generically thinking things like "I have TPTK, so I can call a flop raise/3bet at 2NL". All of your decisions should be based on your estimation of the villain's range for his actions, not "this is the normal action for this stake".

Extreme example: imagine you have TPTK and you're facing a flop raise from:
a) a 6/4 with 12% AFq over 100 hands, or
b) a 53/27 with 88% AFq over 100 hands

What do you think villain a is raising with, and how does your TPTK fare against that? What about villain b?

The only reason that "I can call raises with TPTK at 2NL but not at 5NL" might be true is simply because at 2NL there is a higher percentage of loose bluffy fish. But you could have a much higher winrate if you ditch this mentality.

[spoonitnow]

I'm going to suggest that OP makes a thread in the blogs/operations forum if he or she hasn't done so already. Best of luck.

[StarGrinder]

$2nl-5nl play the same imo. $10nl isn't much different. Moving up from $10nl to $25nl is weird, given the odd blind structure and this is where you'll start to run in to some decent, yet exploitable regs. $50nl is a snooze fest. $100nl is fun poker, where surprisingly you'll find more fish than some may think. $200nl is by far the biggest jump, however I haven't spent very much time there and I'm basing this off what others FTR regs have said.

Anyway, I hold $5nl in the same respects as $2nl. They're both filled with such terrible players that it's hard to learn how to play actual poker and not continuously play so straightforward. The only way I would ever recommend anyone ever playing these limits is if they've never played the game and want to learn the fundamentals on the cheap.

I'm not sure where you stand in that respect, but you stuck it out at $2nl for 60k hands, so at least you've obtained some patience along with a few extra bucks in your roll. Looking forward to reading your progress. Good luck.

[Razvan729]

I noticed you keep saying things like this. You need to stop generically thinking things like "I have TPTK, so I can call a flop raise/3bet at 2NL". All of your decisions should be based on your estimation of the villain's range for his actions, not "this is the normal action for this stake".

Extreme example: imagine you have TPTK and you're facing a flop raise from:
a) a 6/4 with 12% AFq over 100 hands, or
b) a 53/27 with 88% AFq over 100 hands

What do you think villain a is raising with, and how does your TPTK fare against that? What about villain b?

The only reason that "I can call raises with TPTK at 2NL but not at 5NL" might be true is simply because at 2NL there is a higher percentage of loose bluffy fish. But you could have a much higher winrate if you ditch this mentality.

a. i would snap fold, its clear i am beat by its stats, he will rarely bluff there or in the best case i tie, but more often i lose

b. i would 4bet shove, he can deff beat me but there are a lot of combos in his range that i beat, most times with this guy on TPTK i am 0ver 50% favourite