Two recent hands at 2/nl

[Plitz]

Both of these hands have just happened to me simultaneously while I was 2 tableing at Stars.I reviewed each hand a few times to see if it was preventable.What do you guys think?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($0.62)
Button ($1.50)
Hero (SB) ($1.84)
BB ($2.98)
UTG ($0.41)
MP ($1.92)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
UTG bets $0.08, MP calls $0.08, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.32, 2 folds, MP calls $0.24

Flop: ($0.74) K, 2, K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.54) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.73, MP raises to $1.20 (All-In), Hero calls $0.39 (All-In)

River: ($3.78) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $3.78 | Rake: $0.18
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($2.62)
Button ($2.30)
SB ($2.95)
BB ($1.32)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K
Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 4, Q, 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.08, BB calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.33) 6 (2 players)
BB bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.36, BB raises to $0.62, Hero raises to $2.18, BB calls $0.54 (All-In)

River: ($2.65) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.65 | Rake: $0.13

[Plitz]

And 1 more a few minutes later variance or bad play?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($1.06)
SB ($1.68)
Hero (BB) ($1.73)
UTG ($2.99)
MP ($2.11)
CO ($2)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
UTG bets $0.06, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.18, UTG calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.37) Q, 8, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.27, UTG calls $0.27

Turn: ($0.91) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, UTG calls $0.65

River: ($2.21) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Total pot: $2.21 | Rake: $0.10

[Plitz]

First hand villain has [Qs Ks]
Second hand villain has [3d 5d]
Third hand villain has [Js Ah]

[Keith]

hand 1.
1. why arent you full stacked.
2. 3bet size pre is wrong. You either have to go to $.41 or $.24 . your 4bet means that if UTG had 4bet you can't shove and the betting is capped.
3. bet the flop $0.5

hand 2
bet the flop stronger $.12 so that he makes a mistake drawing.Always be suspicious of a 3bet on the turn, it generally means that they are willing to get it all in.

[OngBonga]

1st hand is a cooler really, I can't see we can avoid this. Keith makes some very good points, though I'm not sure about 3betting to $.24 after a 2bet $0.08 from UTG and a call. I can see his point, if UTG 4bets we can't 5bet, we have to call, which is why I'd just 3bet to $0.41 and put him in. I think he calls anyway, he's obviously a fish because he's sitting there with a tiny stack, and is very probably willing to gamble, so we're not avoiding this spot.

2nd hand, is folding to the turn raise out of the question? I agree with Keith's bet sizing of $0.12 on flop.

3rd hand again I agree with Keith, I'm betting somewhere between $0.37 and $0.50, if he calls that I'll pot the bugger again on the turn. If he calls that it's obviously c/f on the river, but I'd make note, find his other tables and make as much as possible of this punk.

I'd forgotten just how fishy 2nl is. I might step back down.

[Plitz]

I just had this happened to me 3-4 times again...If anyone has interest I'll post them.
Keith_MM,OngBonga thx for the feed back I'll be looking deeper into what you had to say.

[daviddem]

Yes post, and also keep in mind that you tend to remember bad beats much more than the hands where the outcome was "normal". Also post hands where you won, but where you are not sure the whether you made the right play. Train yourself to put your opponent on a range every street. This is key.

[Plitz]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($3.37)
MP ($2.90)
CO ($0.34)
Button ($2.82)
SB ($1.32)
BB ($1.59)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
Hero bets $0.08, MP calls $0.08, 1 fold, Button calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.34) 5, K, 6 (4 players)
SB bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, Button calls $0.30, SB calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.54) 3 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, MP raises to $2.52 (All-In), Button calls $2.44 (All-In), SB calls $0.94 (All-In), Hero calls $1.52

River: ($9.96) K (4 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: $9.96 | Rake: $0.49

Results:
Button had 8, 4 (one pair, Kings).
SB had K, Q (three of a kind, Kings).
Hero had A, A (two pair, Aces and Kings).
MP had 6, 6 (full house, sixes over Kings).
Outcome: MP won $9.47

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($2.04)
Button ($0.30)
SB ($4.15)
BB ($2.82)
UTG ($5.01)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, SB calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.24) 7, 8, 9 (3 players)
SB bets $0.12, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.36, SB calls $0.24

Turn: ($0.96) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1

River: ($2.96) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2.96 | Rake: $0.14

Results:
SB had J, 9 (three of a kind, nines).
Hero mucked A, A (two pair, Aces and nines).
Outcome: SB won $2.82

[daviddem]

H1: raise more on the flop. Against 4 opps here you need at least a pot sized raise ($0.64), if not more. Don't make the mistake of basing your raise size on the size of the bet of your opponent only. A pot sized raise=size of the pot when it is your turn to play ($0.44) + 2x what you would pay to just call ($0.10), so total = $0.64. As played, having been called in 4 spots on the flop, I don't think you should bet the turn because you don't want to be committed with just a pair in this spot. It's very likely that one of them has a better hand than yours at this stage. As played, you have to call $1.52 for a chance to win $8.44, so the pot odds are 15%. Even then, I think it is still a fold because if any of them has a set or a straight, you're crushed. It's only a (slim) call if the best hand out there is two pairs.

H2: same mistake, your flop raise is too small. On this very coordinated board, you need close to a pot sized raise ($0.60). Turn is OK, but you really need to put your opponent on a range here (and also on previous streets). River is a cooler, shit happens, move on.

Read "guidelines for posting hands" in the beginners' digest. Include reads and ranges.

[OngBonga]

Yeah it seems you're not aggressive enough on the flop and you're not able to let go of aces when they're in a mess.

1st hand it's clear really that aces aren't going to be good at showdown, I'd b/f turn and shout a lot of swears. I would hope you made plenty of notes from this hand, the guy who won the hand did nothing bad, but the other two are exactly the kind of fish we want at our table. Yes sometimes they get lucky (happily they didn't get lucky here), but we're playing the probabilities against these muppets. Look for good spots against these guys and take them to value city. The guy with the full house, nh, don't try and bite back at him based on this hand.

2nd hand is brutal. I'm gonna take in daviddem's post because I don't really know what I should be 3betting to in certain spots, I just kind of guess. Having said that, I'd be 3betting larger due to the draw-heavy flop, maybe something like $0.48. It seems even this is too low so I could do with reassessing my 3bet sizing. Again, make a note about this guy, something like "calls J9s to raise pf, then won't let go of TP+draw", and it can help you to value bet against this guy in future, as well as allow you to be certain that J9s is in his calling range to a pf raise, which isn't massively fishy of course, but the way he plays his hand post flop is questionable, especially to the turn bet. There's money to be made off him for sure, he called it with what he should realise is a draw, not a hand that's likely to win at showdown unless it improves. And he didn't bet the river, so his implied odds were nearly zero, since if he spikes his ten I can't see you calling AA to anything other than a ridiculously small river value bet.

Is there an article on here about 3bet sizing?

[daviddem]

Is there an article on here about 3bet sizing?

How much you should raise to really depends on a lot of things, especially on post flop streets, where stack sizes should influence your sizing, along with board texture, number of opponents, their style, their ranges, your position, etc. All this should help you decide the odds you want to offer to your opponent(s), which in turn dictate your raise size.

Mathematically, a pot sized raise (or bet) is defined as a raise (or bet) that offers 33.33% pot odds to your opponent (2:1 odds). In other words, opp would have to call X for a chance to win 2X.

Let's do the math. Let's say P is the total pot size after your opponent has bet B. You need to raise to R so that your opponent has to call (R-B) and get 33.33% pot odds:
(R-B)/(P+R+R-B)=0.3333
(the denominator is the total size of the pot after opp has called)
R-B=0.3333*(P+2R-B)
3R-3B=P+2R-B
R=P+2B
So your raise has to be the size of the pot after your opponent has bet + 2x what it would cost you to call his bet.

The good thing is that it works in all cases:
- if your opponent checks or if you are OOP (B=0), then you simply have to bet P, the size of the pot, to offer 33.33% pot odds.
- if there are multiple opponents, say opp1 bets B1, opp2 raises to B2, the rule still holds: pot is P when it is your turn to play, and if you raise to P+2*B2, you are offering opp2 33.33% pot odds (and >33.33% to opp1)

This is what happens when you hit the "pot" button on the bet slider of your poker room.

Similarly, you lay the following pot odds with these bet/raise sizes:
3/4 pot: 30%
2/3 pot: 28.6%
1/2 pot: 25%
1/3 pot: 20%
1/4 pot: 16.7%

[OngBonga]

Thanks for that post daviddem, very useful.