Never Ever Open Limp -- Bad Idea?

[inmytaxi]

I never open limp, some pro said not to so I don't, I min raise w/small pairs in early position.

I play 100nl cash and 3r - 10 entry tourneys as a general rule, mostly tourneys.

Is this a good idea for a beginner?

I do call limps with suited connectors, small pairs, depending on the circumstances.

[spoonitnow]

Welcome to FTR.

I never open limp...Is this a good idea for a beginner?

Yes.

I play 100nl cash...Is this a good idea for a beginner?

No.

Best of luck.

[!Luck]

Check out http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...re-123008.html

Especially the part of bankroll management. And welcome.

[daviddem]

Seems to me I see a lot of people at 5nl adopting this min raising strategy in EP with marginal hands. Problem with that is that once you know what they are doing and have a note on them, it becomes pretty transparent. Personally, I either standard 4xbb raise my small pairs in EP or just lay them down, depending on the table tightness/aggressiveness. At tight/passive tables, I tend to raise them and they often take the blinds or I get one caller and a cbet on a good flop often does the job. At loose/aggressive tables, where I am likely to get multiple callers or be 3b, I lay them down.

Min raising is bad in general, since you lay such good odds for anyone to call with a half decent hand.

[OngBonga]

I rarely open-limp, the only times I do it is early in a low buy-in MTT, when the blinds are <100, and there's plenty of fish, and only if I'm expecting to see the flop for my limp. In that event, I won't lay down small pairs, I can set mine this spot.

Cash tables, I don't open limp any more. I sometimes limp behind with scs or pps, but never open limp.

I play 100nl cash and 3r - 10 entry tourneys as a general rule, mostly tourneys.

Is this a good idea for a beginner?

What spoon said. I've just given my brother an email bollocking for playing $3 rebuys with a small bankroll, linked him to this site pleading with him to read up on bankroll management. $3 rebuys require a bankroll of at least $900. If you've got that, then I guess it's no problem to play $3 rebuys.

As for 100nl, if you really are a beginner then you're just giving your money away playing at this level. For a start, proper bankroll management requires a roll of $4000 before we even take a seat, and then we really need to understand the game if we intend to make money instead of losing it.

If I'm honest, I'd say you're way off the required standard to play 100nl. I say this because you tell us that you don't open limp because a pro told you not to. You can learn a lot off the pros, but it requires more than just hearing what they say... you need to understand it too. Why is it bad to open limp? If you don't know, then please step down from 100nl very quickly.

[inmytaxi]

I "never" do it because Chris Ferguson had a thing on FTP Academy challenge where one of the requirements to complete it was to not open limp for 90 hands.

I figured if it's a bad idea generally then I'd just never do it, with a few exceptions, mostly being shortstacked or low M near the bubble/pay out jump/final table of an MTT where I need to control pot size. Though even there I try to get the hint that if I need to limp I should probably fold.

I guess I think it's a good idea to min raise as opposed to open limp is to make sure I'm giving the blinds a chance to fold.

I play all my early position hands the same way usually, so if u raise my min raise I could have AK AA or 22.

[inmytaxi]

So far as 100nl being too high ... my bankroll hits demonstrate you are correct sirs.

[OngBonga]

I'm not going to pretend I know why open limping is bad, I'm with you, I don't do it because better players than me tell me not to. I try to understand though. One reason is that we are also told to respect an early position raise, so if you raise your 22 utg to standard 3xbb, it makes it easier to get folds on a A79 flop. Those who pay attantion, they're going to notice if you're raising or limping, and what position you have these tendancies. If you're limping 22-77 utg but raising 88+, it won't take long before people are putting you on an accurate range, especially at the higher levels like 100nl, and you will find that you're not getting paid off for your sets as often as you need to show a profit. If you raise it though, well, people will have you on a range of 22+ AQ+ or something like that, a much wider range that makes any decision a villain has to make that much more complicated. This is likely to enduce more mistakes from skilled opponents.

Another factor is momentum... I don't know what the stats are, but I'm pretty sure that the raiser takes down the pot at the flop much more often than the limper or the caller.

But there's still more to it. What I do know is that I stopped doing it, and I seemed to have an increase in my winrate. Other factors may have contributed, I don't know.

It's good that you can be honest about your bankroll hits, it means you haven't left it too late to step down graciously. Take the link on bankroll management and play within your means, and you will find that it all starts to fall into place as you play more and more hands. Step down again if needs be, just learn the game before you start dreaming of lots of monies.

Good luck!

[OngBonga]

Oh, and limping is terrible with a short stack, it's either push or fold. I laugh loudly whenever I see someone with <10bb limp in only to fold to a raise.

[Acemonk]

how big is your bankroll to play 100nl?!?! It took me years to climb up to 100NL. There's some good players that will track you and hunt you down if you aren't careful

[spoonitnow]

I rarely open-limp, the only times I do it is early in a low buy-in MTT, when the blinds are <100, and there's plenty of fish, and only if I'm expecting to see the flop for my limp. In that event, I won't lay down small pairs, I can set mine this spot.

Cash tables, I don't open limp any more. I sometimes limp behind with scs or pps, but never open limp.

What spoon said. I've just given my brother an email bollocking for playing $3 rebuys with a small bankroll, linked him to this site pleading with him to read up on bankroll management. $3 rebuys require a bankroll of at least $900. If you've got that, then I guess it's no problem to play $3 rebuys.

As for 100nl, if you really are a beginner then you're just giving your money away playing at this level. For a start, proper bankroll management requires a roll of $4000 before we even take a seat, and then we really need to understand the game if we intend to make money instead of losing it.

If I'm honest, I'd say you're way off the required standard to play 100nl. I say this because you tell us that you don't open limp because a pro told you not to. You can learn a lot off the pros, but it requires more than just hearing what they say... you need to understand it too. Why is it bad to open limp? If you don't know, then please step down from 100nl very quickly.

Seems to me I see a lot of people at 5nl adopting this min raising strategy in EP with marginal hands. Problem with that is that once you know what they are doing and have a note on them, it becomes pretty transparent. Personally, I either standard 4xbb raise my small pairs in EP or just lay them down, depending on the table tightness/aggressiveness. At tight/passive tables, I tend to raise them and they often take the blinds or I get one caller and a cbet on a good flop often does the job. At loose/aggressive tables, where I am likely to get multiple callers or be 3b, I lay them down.

Min raising is bad in general, since you lay such good odds for anyone to call with a half decent hand.

I'd like to mention that there's nothing inherently wrong with open-limping or min-raising in NLHE. The problem is that the vast majority of the time (and I'm talking like 99.9%) it's better not to, and the advantage you gain in those few times over raising to a more "normal" amount is so small that it's not worth worrying about right now.

An example of when it would probably be right to open-limp some hands is if you're playing with very passive pre-flop players left to act in a game that's fairly deep where people left to act often pay off multiple streets with bad hands.

An example of when it would probably be right to open min-raise is when you're on the button against people who fold a very high percentage of the time. In fact, this is the default opening size for a number of small-mid stakes regulars on the button.

[bjsaust]

I like it when people tell me the strength of their hands. Given other people like it too, you probably should stop doing that.

There are times I might open limp, but they're more the exception that proves the rule, I need a very good reason vs a specific opponent to do so.

[Icanhastreebet]

I minraise nearly 100% of the time and open limp some non 0%.

[portlandford]

What I have found at the lower levels, and I know I will get pounded for this...I open limp a lot with lower pocket pairs 22-99, only in the first 4 levels.

Here is my reasoning...at the lower levels, I play mostly $1.40 and $2.20(90 people) and $4.40(180 people) sit n go's on stars, three things will happen.

I limp in a we pick up other limpers, if we hit a set, we tend to get the least value for the set in this situation. If we miss, fold and move on. Cheap though...

I limp and get reraised, they were going to re-raise anyway and they dont want to scare us away, limp in for 30, raised to 90 or 120, perfect! I feel like I get the most value when I hit my set in this situation, they have a high pocket pair or A-K through A-J and we get all their chips : ) When I lead out for 90 and get reraised for 180 or 270, it makes it harder to make that call especially when we have 1500 or 2000 chips

If the raiser get re-raised or if someone pushes all in with thier A-10, lol, (remember this is lower levels), it is an easy fold and move on.

But maybe this is the completely the wrong play when moving up to higher levels. I have final tabled a lot of the $1.40 sit n gos(about 40%) and taken down(33% of those), small sample size of 27. But I just started playing the $4.40 and only have one final table in 6 tries(5th place). So maybe I am wrong. I am going to start playing more $2.20, may have moved up too fast.

With suited connectors and one gappers and suited ace rags, I never limp in because I will fold before entering a pot with these hands, especially since I really only like to play them in late position and really want others in the pot. Again, this all changes when the BB hits $150

[OngBonga]

But I just started playing the $4.40 and only have one final table in 6 tries(5th place).

That's an investment of $26.40 and a return of $46.80... I don't think you're doing too bad at the $4.40 sngs!

I'm actually with you on this, open-limping during the early stages. There's plenty of fish around just dying to hit top pair so they can shove, so pocket pairs are great stack builders in the early stages. But once the blinds hit 100, it's a no-no.

[PokerWang]

I don't really like to open limp. This makes you transparent and easy to read. I just do a standard raise or a 3bet PF then cbet on the flop. Also, if you're a beginner, then what are you doing playing 100nl?

[OngBonga]

I don't really like to open limp. This makes you transparent and easy to read. I just do a standard raise or a 3bet PF then cbet on the flop. Also, if you're a beginner, then what are you doing playing 100nl?

Good summary of the thread.