Limp raising aces

[OngBonga]

This... this is something I am seeing a lot of... people getting "creative" with aces. Last night, I picked up aces on the bb, there were one or two limps, I chunk it up, and MP 3bets? I thought one of two things...

1) this guy is a FTR reg who has seen my talk about the l/r and is trying to represent aces to me,
or...
2) he has aces too.

I said to myself he might have KK and should play properly, 4betting him blah blah, he shoves, I insta, and... drumroll please... he has aces. Rake party, Stars win.

Now, I am going to start a tally of hands that I see l/raising, because I'm sure that 90%+ of the time it's aces. I saw a few l/r last night, but the only one I saw the showdown was this AA vs AA hand above.

So...

AA - 1

I'll update after tonight's session. I just wanna do this for my own sake really, to keep a record of what hands do it and how often, so I can stop being frightened of AA if I can see enough other hands do it, or to be legitimately frightened of AA if it's only ever AA, or 90%+ like I suspect.

[StarGrinder]

90%? I'd say more like they're repping AA 90%, not that they actually have it. I understand what you're saying, but I've seen villains limp/raise with all kinds of crap. It's very player dependent imo.

[daviddem]

From what I see at the micros, limp reraise is AA about half of the time, and also often small pairs. I've seen it done with KK as well, and even once or twice with QQ-JJ, AK in late position. People must have read somewhere that they have to misrepresent their hands... Sometimes it's also a limper with a weak hand tilting when you keep raising him.

Hints (obvious?): if it's a TAGG/nit in EP at an aggressive table, more chances that it's AA. If it's a short stack donk, it's often a small/medium pair, but they also do it with their big pairs. Try your best to discern which one it is (not always easy, I am still getting caught regularly). Without reads or against the TAGG in EP, I am afraid it often has to be a fold though, unless stacks are deep and the price is right to call in position to set mine (remaining effective stack = 15x to 20x the call).

So far I have almost always been raising my AA, but I must say I am tempted to do the limp raise trick more often if conditions are right. Happens so often that I just pick up the blinds and the limps with my AA... Looking back in my DB, KK has been massively more profitable for me than AA over 20,000 hands.

[OngBonga]

I realise that I might just notice the AA more than I notice the others, this is the prime reason I want to keep a tally. I will be fair and honest, because I'm doing it because my memory is selective. I need to know how often this is aces so I'm making correct plays when I have jacks or whatever.

I understand the idea of misrepresentation, it's something I'm constantly trying to do, but if people are paying attention, they should notice I don't limp, so when I limp, they should ask why. I misrepresent aces by raising with them... just like I raise 22, KQs and any other hand I want to play. For example, in the UK league on stars on the 1st, we were at final table, some aggro guy who's just lost a big pot and is now in danger is saying in the chat bar how it's push or fold time... then he limps in EP on my bb when I have TT. I immediately say in the chat bar "limp?", and check my bb after it's folded to me, flop Axx, check check, turn A, check bet fold. I asked him if he had quads, he said he had QQ and said to his friend who was sat with him at the time "this limp is gonna stink". He was right. Had he raised, I'm coming over the top of an aggro player at FT with TT on my BB, and with his stack, that would put him in. He doubles. A few hands later, he shoves ace rag suited and gets called, dominated, and busts out. I went on to get 2nd, but if I doubled him that hand, we'd have been equally stacked. I guess the point is, you misrepresent your monster hand by playing it like you play and average-strong hand.

[daviddem]

Microstakes:

[ ] people pay attention
[ ] people notice you don't limp
[x] people want to believe that you do that with a small/medium pair or that you are tilting, as many others do
[x] people don't like to fold KK-TT, AK facing what they think/hope is a small pair or a tilting donk.

That's why it can be a good play if you are confident that someone will raise behind you. Obviously, if you reach the flop with 5 limpers, it's a disaster. One of the funniest things in poker is to watch this strategy backfire formidably, and the "trappy-chappy" being unable to fold his aces when he is obviously beat...

Note that I agree with you in general when you say that by raising a wide range, you should get paid more often with your good hands... against decent players who notice...

[tyrn]

you're going to hurt your head thinking this hard at micros. most people play on level 1. Occasionally some play on level 2, you're on level 10.

[philly and the phanatics]

ongabonga theres an exact thread with all this a couple pages back started by RPM....i will say like i did in that thread and the JJ backraise thread that i know you were reading....

i hvae seen people do this with 77+ AJ AQ KQ KJ Q9 tons of random shit, dont just insta be like OMG ACES I HAS TO FOLD, obviously tread carefully but still

[tyrn]

This is only since august, Only hands that hero went to showdown, and only starting hands: AA and AK. I don't think I need to go down the list of starting hands any further. Some at 2nl some at 5nl.


Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A
2 folds, SB calls $0.01, Hero bets $0.10, SB raises to $0.18, Hero raises to $0.60, SB raises to $0.93 (All-In), Hero calls $0.33

Flop: ($1.86) 3, 8, 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($1.86) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1.86) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.86 | Rake: $0.12

Results:
SB had 7, A (two pair, eights and sevens).
Hero had K, A (one pair, eights).
Outcome: SB won $1.74






Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.22, 2 folds, UTG raises to $3.54 (All-In), Hero calls $3.32

Flop: ($7.15) Q, Q, 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($7.15) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($7.15) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $7.15 | Rake: $0.47

Results:
Hero had A, K (flush, Ace high).
UTG had 5, A (two pair, Queens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $6.68








Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A
3 folds, Button calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.10, Button raises to $2.29 (All-In), Hero calls $2.19

Flop: ($4.58) 4, 3, 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($4.58) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.58) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.58 | Rake: $0.30

Results:
Button had 5, K (two pair, sixes and fives).
Hero had A, A (two pair, Aces and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $4.28








Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.10, 3 folds, MP raises to $0.18, Hero raises to $0.60, MP raises to $1.02, Hero raises to $2 (All-In), MP calls $0.98

Flop: ($4.03) Q, 3, Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($4.03) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.03) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.03 | Rake: $0.26

Results:
MP had J, J (two pair, Queens and Jacks).
Hero had A, A (two pair, Aces and Queens).
Outcome: Hero won $3.77







Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.10, 3 folds, UTG raises to $0.88 (All-In), Hero calls $0.78

Flop: ($1.79) 10, 4, 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($1.79) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1.79) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.79 | Rake: $0.11

Results:
UTG had J, J (full house, tens over Jacks).
Hero had A, A (full house, tens over Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $1.68








Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20, MP raises to $2.25 (All-In), Hero calls $2, 1 fold

Flop: ($4.77) 5, 2, 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($4.77) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.77) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.77 | Rake: $0.31

Results:
Hero had A, A (one pair, Aces).
MP had 7, K (high card, King).
Outcome: Hero won $4.46


Soo.. AA - 1, JJ - 2, A-rag - 2, Complete garbage - 2

[philly and the phanatics]

TY tyrn

[!Luck]

Why are you making your life so difficult. You can stack off with AA and KK every time and not even think about it. Spend your time about whether you should C bet KJs vs a loose but passive player on a T62tt flop, when you are in position (figure out why it is or isn't profitable). THAT will yield greater rewards. Or if you are at 2nl, just bet bet bet for value move up and worry about other concepts as they are required.

[Sup3rM4N]

1) this guy is a FTR reg who has seen my talk about the l/r and is trying to represent aces to me,

This made me L-O-L

[daviddem]

So here we go, from my HEM DB (only 18,000 hands):



Bear in mind that:
- this is 2NL, and a lot of it is short stack tables, which I know skews the results a lot towards the weaker hands
- the stats also includes players who first call a raise and then 4-bet when someone behind them 3-bets):

Over 142 limp reraises, 16 were AA (11.3%), 32 were big pairs (AA-QQ) (22.6%), 31 hands were small/medium pairs (JJ-22) (21.8%), 8 hands were AK (5.6%) and the rest was suited connectors, AQ-AJ KQ, ace high or air (50%).

Looking at the positional stats, this is done much more often from EP, obviously in part because EP limpers are raised more often, but maybe also by players getting cute and trying to represent aces...

To give you an idea of the color scale, dark red is 8 hands and dark green one hand.

You can easily do the same with your HEM. Go to Holdem Vision, preflop ranges tab and select limp reraise as the preflop situation. I'd be curious to see how this changes at 2NL without the short stack tables and at 5-10NL.

I think this clearly illustrates the importance of considering all available information when facing this situation before deciding whether to call, 4-bet or fold. Stack sizes, player's stats and position, table aggressivity, tilt tendencies, and so on.

[OngBonga]

Some good input in this thread, thanks all.

I can't find how to do this on PokerTracker v3. I've found the filters, but nowhere can I select limp/raise. I'd certainly be interested to see what my database has to say.

I saw a few l/r last night, but none went to showdown. I was forced to fold ATs on the button after raising it, UTG+1 limp raised. I assumed aces, but I didn't exactly have a difficult decision, if ATs isn't an easy fold to a 3bet 9 handed I don't know what is.

Reminds me of an amusing hand last night in an mtt... We were deep, in the cash, and I had a stack of 14bb... picked up KJs in MP... UTG limps (habit for him), I shove (hoping to take down dead money), folds round to UTG, he insta calls ATo (for half his stack) and I hit flush. He says in chat bar "Once again another suck out", I respond "It was a dumb call, stop whining", to which he replies "are you serious rofl". This made me smile. He judges how good a call to a shove is by making the call and seeing if his hand is favourite. If he puts me on a range, he would see he's far from favourite. AT is rarely dominating an early position 14bb shove from a TAGG (down to 10bb I can shove Axs, JTs and QTs without a care, but at 14bb KJs really is the bottom of my shoving range), but it is very often dominated. The best he's getting in is 56-44 like the race he faced, although usually he's drawing on one card. It made me happy that he considered such a dreadful call to a shove as a bad beat.

I haven't been playing 2nl for the last couple of days, getting stuck into mtts and doing quite nicely. Cashed in the $11 buy in $250k guarantee yesterday, went deep in a $1 buy in $3k guarantee too. Generally I see this l/r trick more in tourneys, I guess it's not as bad a play in a mtt where blinds are going up, stacks are eroding and we have to take risks, but at a cash table I just think it's idiotic, especially if they then cannot let go of them when they meet serious aggression.

Does anyone here ever l/r aces at cash tables? Maybe your HEM can tell us how much money you win when you l/r aces compared to when you just raise/reraise/rererereraise. That would be an interesting statistic.

[kiwiMark]

god damnit

[HarleyGuy13]

I want this 60 seconds of my life back plz!

[OngBonga]

No.

[oskar]

If someone with a small vpip/pfr gap limp/raises from utg at an FR game, you can make pretty conservative folds and not feel too bad about it. If it's some half stack who runs 35/4 over 15 hands, it could be whatever.