50NL - rivered 2 pair against LAG and Fish

[KoRnholio]

BB is loose and somewhat aggro (something like 30/22). MP is a fish (40/10/25 steal) and I have been getting into quite a few hands with him. BB would surely bet a worse 2 pair here, probably wouldn't bluff a whiffed draw with the fish still in. Not sure if he'd fold 2 pair if I shove. Fishy's call on the river makes me think he just hit his ace overcard for new top pair. I think worse might call me if I shove, but should I? Is min raise-folding to a BB reraise an option?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($41.81)
Hero (Button) ($41.64)
SB ($49.75)
BB ($40.73)
UTG ($45.61)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 6
1 fold, MP bets $1.70, Hero calls $1.70, 1 fold, BB calls $1.10

Flop: ($5.30) 6, 4, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $2.65, BB calls $2.65, MP calls $2.65

Turn: ($13.25) J (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($13.25) A (3 players)
BB bets $8, MP calls $8, Hero shoves for ~$28?

[leftygrove]

i like it. don't think either of them ever really have better very often with that line

[Mr. Diamond]

this hand is so weird with that stats and I think shoving is best option by far

- rebuy
- and min raise/fold is super spew - if they call min raise, they call shove (they will probably not shove with worse after your min raise, but you lost a ton of value vs A3, A7, A4, KJcc or w/e, so just shove)

[bspahn]

it's a good shove, there a tons of A4, A5, A7 type hands out there

more importantly though I think you gotta bet this turn. it's not scary, unlikely to connect with them and you want to charge them for weaker top pairs, str8 draws and flush draws, and if you're beat because they flopped big then at least it's pretty damn easy to get away on the turn if you get checkraised !

[KoRnholio]

Thanks guys. I shoved and BB had 87 for the nuts. Wasn't sure if two pair there was worthy of a shove given how generally nitty online cash games are when the money goes in. eg. guys might actually fold as good as 54/A4 since they'd need to put me on a bluff or overplayed Ax/one pair to make that call. Probably me leveling myself as usual, lol.

[bspahn]

i would say in general unless its a 4-str8 or 4flush type board, people have a VERY hard time laying down any 2 pair hand

[pocketfours]

buy in full;dr

[Mr. Diamond]

BB had 87 for the nuts

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he is unbelievable idiot

- he simply misplayed every street

[pocketfours]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he is unbelievable idiot

- he simply misplayed every street

Wait a minute, let's be at least a little results oriented here. Why do you think his play is terrible?

[KoRnholio]

buy in full;dr

I was rebuying just enough to cover the big fish on my right. Given how nub/tournydonkesque I am at cash games, the shorter my stack is the better, lol.

I actually don't think the BB played his hand terribly. Sure he's giving a free card to any unlikely flush draws, but he could fully expect myself or Mr Fish to have an overpair or make a new top pair type hand and bet the turn for him.

[Mr. Diamond]

Wait a minute, let's be at least a little results oriented here. Why do you think his play is terrible?

On this type of board I would DB for sure. If you see just his hand, flop texture and fish in the pot, its very bad for him how the pot is small on the river. If fish is connected with this board, he will pay anything. Sometimes he has KJ and folds, but I think its good to build a pot here + there is still hero in the pot

[bikes]

BB's play is fine. Why blow everyone out of the pot on the flop. leading the turn is debatable and river plays itself.

[nutsinho]

whoa id def not shove here...yall are bad at handreading

[Mr. Diamond]

Ok so my thoughts for DB from BB:

- if fish has a big hand, money will go in the middle anyway
- you are talking about free card, etc., but if fish has KQ or something like this (and in non zero%, he will call with this hand too), he will improve only on 12,8% turn cards, meanwhile we lose value against marginal hands like A5, A7, 88, 75, 43, FDs, etc. and these hands are a lot
- and I don't think, that this fish will be aggresive with something like 45, but probably calls 3 barrels almost everytime



My thougths for shoving as Hero:

- as played and with the read that BB is aggro (now we see that he is probably not so aggro), I think BB range after river action is something like 65, 45, 64, A6, maybe A5, A7 and Acxc (I would DB sets on flop)
- fish range can be same + some random crap
- I think fish will call with every hand above and BB can easy make mistake

[Da GOAT]

id prob 3bet pre vs opp

Id bet turn looking to charge draws then evaluate on river.

Id prob call river bet, his lead is a VB so id call expecting to be ahead most of the time. I think a raise will force him to fold alot.

[griffey24]

If only BB bets, I'd like a value shove a little more.

Now that BB bets, and fish calls, our jam here has very few bluffs in it. It will be hard for BB to call with worse (stubborn 56 maybe?). Furthermore, BB SHOULD be afraid of the ace against both the fish's range and our range. He's still betting into both of us. If he's not afraid of the ace, then he likely beats AK. If he beats AK on this particular board, he probably beats A6 as well.

[Mr. Diamond]

If only BB bets, I'd like a value shove a little more.

Now that BB bets, and fish calls, our jam here has very few bluffs in it. It will be hard for BB to call with worse (stubborn 56 maybe?). Furthermore, BB SHOULD be afraid of the ace against both the fish's range and our range. He's still betting into both of us. If he's not afraid of the ace, then he likely beats AK. If he beats AK on this particular board, he probably beats A6 as well.

This post is so good, but I still see it little bit differently

- if we are BB and have marginal hand like 45 (and everything is same) - I would lead this river, because we lose value against fish with A3, A7, Acxc, Jcxc
- is this bad??
- and I think this, because how Hero played a hand. Hero range is so weak here - something like 86, 9c8c, 77, etc. - just want to extract value from fish


- and same for Hero: KoRnholio said that BB is aggro (and I think aggro player would play every better hand than A6 differently) - so we can shove, because in worst case we are spliting vs BB and fish will call a lot with hands above + worse 2pair
- is this bad??
- and I think this, because of "aggro read". If we haven't that read we can't shove, because his range would be now full of straights, sets and 2pair and it would be really close between calling and folding

[griffey24]

BB would very likely lead all better hands on the river, and would also lead hands that we beat.

In order to value shove, we have to beat BB (or fish often enough) AND they need to CALL WITH WORSE.

I'm not sure there are that many hands that will call a shove on the river, that are worse, unless BB is a non-believer, or fish is super cally and will call some nonsense on the river.

The most likely hand that will call our shove that we beat is A5 potentially, that played this way. A lot of the two pairs we want value from on the river, might have c/r'd the flop (45, 56?).

By the same logic, I'd also imagine that hands that beat ours (444/555/666/78) would also c/r the flop, but I suppose its more likely that he'd slow play a stronger hand than a hand that is more vulnerable. He's also more likely to slow-play a strong hand to keep the fish in.

[Mr. Diamond]

thank you - now I clearly see where is the problem

- I want to shove, because of that read - I would expect every aggro player to DB (or c/r) all sets and straights on the flop, so his flop passivity extremely hurts his river betting range
- by shoving I want to get value from fish, because I think BB folds almost everytime and fish will call with any ace, 2pair, etc.


I agree with everything you are saying. All my posts were based on that read - this is whole problem