Why so passive? 2nl

[JKDS]

Im posting this and a few other hands because i just got back into poker. I moved part of my roll over to stars (can only do 100 with echecks ) and since i havent played online in forever, im just gonna rebuild that to what i had. if i remember everything, it should be pretty quick...but we'll see.

villain is a 38/0 over 8, other guy is a 50/0 over 6, and the sb is a 22/4 over 22.

So sample size aside, we got a bunch of loose passive guys here. Shame that im also playing so fucking passive too.


$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($0.58)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($0.97)
MP2 ($1.07)
MP3 ($3.37)
CO ($2.96)
BTN ($2.44)
SB ($2.31)
Hero ($2)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 9 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 3 folds, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

This is a standard raise pre correct? Like, against these guys that are limping any hand under the sun, how can i not raise...I mean, i likely wont be reraised and i expect ill be called alot.

Flop: ($0.08, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, SB calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

Well, i checked...missed...so check again. Even against 3 other guys, i think this might be a bet too. Ima do an ev thing on how often i need all 3 to fold to be +EV later, but my intuition right now is that ill get them to fold pretty much everything but 22-TT (jJ+ shouldnt be there) and the rare A3, A2...meanwhile they fold the rest of their huge limping ranges. Maybe they all dont fold enough...but i probably have enough hand equity to still bet anyway. hrm.

I like to play passive losing poker though, so getting like some ridiculous odds, i call a 2c bet knowing that my outs should be good...and if they arent ill know pretty quickly with relative position on this minbettor.

Turn: ($0.16, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.04, 1 fold, SB folds, Hero calls $0.04

Hey i hit! Check! all is going according to my passive plan. Villain bets 1/4th pot...all fold...and thats a fucking gay size. im not real comfy raising here, but his hand doesnt look anything like a 3 or a stronger pp. Maybe this is a raise too...

River: ($0.24, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

Lets c/c again, wtf not.

So win or lose, i think this is the most passive poker ive ever played. Someone smack me and say like...Raise Raise Raise or something.

[JKDS]

ok so on the flop i need them all to fold about 13% of the time, if each folds half their range when i bet, then theyd all fold 13% of the time or so. Given that its such a dry board i feel this is reasonable.

[surviva316]

i don't think raising preflop is like an absolute necessity, and pretty much any player in the BC (myself included) has too weak of a postflop game for us to do it profitably (note, this is because villains are unknowns). we're obv ahead of their ranges, though, so there's obv a way to make raising pre profitable (and it won't ALWAYS end up a 4-way pot).

flop is fine. again, multiway pot against complete unknown fish, so barrelling wars are gonna be v v marginally +EV at best.

i would def lead turn, though. villain doesn't really have initiative, and there's value in betting, so i don't really get c/c'ing.

as played, lead river for same reason

[grorienew]

Привет!
я хочу создать сайт, только не умею
скожите нужно уметь програмировать? мне сказал друг што можно какими то
програмами сделать. и какой нужен комп? мощный? мой слабый, на нем хорошие игры
не работают но интернет хорошо работает я в интернете играю в флеш игры Димка сайт показал
<флеш игры> я пока мамы нет там играю а то там
есть иротические игры и приколы
и еще вроде можно бесплатный сайт зделать только надо зарегестрироваться, интересно там нужен паспорт?
димка сказал что не нужно. яб тоже хотел там. димка мне там показал сайт с фильмами <Фильмы> только откуда мне взять столько фильмов
я не знаю

[kmind]

Yeah agreed with surviva and grorienew

[alexpoker]

By playing so passive your not going to rake in the pots you need to be to increase your stack over the long term. Raising 100 times the big blind will put players like villian in their seat.

[JKDS]

By playing so passive your not going to rake in the pots you need to be to increase your stack over the long term. Raising 100 times the big blind will put players like villian in their seat.

The day i play that exploit-ably is the day i stop playing poker.

@Surviva/Kmind

Ya, i can see not wanting to fire the flop here against 3 villains, and if any of these unknowns isnt folding a ton then im not gonna be in a good spot.

On the turn, ya you're absolutely right. A minflopbet doesnt exactly constitute an opponent that i want to check a turned top pair to. He could very easily check behind which would be the gay, and i dont really like c/r-ing anyway so i completely agree with a lead here. Hes even more likely to check behind the river too imo.

Thanks for setting my head straight here.

[littleogre]

The day i play that exploit-ably is the day i stop playing poker.

@Surviva/Kmind

Ya, i can see not wanting to fire the flop here against 3 villains, and if any of these unknowns isnt folding a ton then im not gonna be in a good spot.

On the turn, ya you're absolutely right. A minflopbet doesnt exactly constitute an opponent that i want to check a turned top pair to. He could very easily check behind which would be the gay, and i dont really like c/r-ing anyway so i completely agree with a lead here. Hes even more likely to check behind the river too imo.

Thanks for setting my head straight here.

Dude you actually understand arabic? At least it looks like arabic to me.

[Kijjo]

My opinion on 2NL (I'm screwing around with it currently on FT due to Take2 promo -I'm usually a SNG guy) is that it's quite ok to play passive pre. I guess Daniel Negraneau's challenge got me thinking - he plays alot of small ball poker and it fits ok with 2NL and probably 5NL as long as you're full ring.
I'm seeing so many folks limp with everything - I mean last night at one table within about 5 hands I saw a dude open limp middle position with 82o, then a few hands later, dude beside him limps along with about 3 others with AKo. I'm like WHAT???
So what ends up happening is if you raise pre here, sure you'll get it folded around often, but you also have a TON of dummies that re-raise allin on you - then you have to start guessing where you stand against their freaking 76/0 range? Could be AA or could be J4o - but unless you've watched him a ton, I think there's no freaking way to tell at this level!
Personally, I rather playing passive in this spot, and surprise 'em when I make a nice hand and I'm picking up their chips.

[EasyPoker]

My opinion on 2NL (I'm screwing around with it currently on FT due to Take2 promo -I'm usually a SNG guy) is that it's quite ok to play passive pre. I guess Daniel Negraneau's challenge got me thinking - he plays alot of small ball poker and it fits ok with 2NL and probably 5NL as long as you're full ring.
I'm seeing so many folks limp with everything - I mean last night at one table within about 5 hands I saw a dude open limp middle position with 82o, then a few hands later, dude beside him limps along with about 3 others with AKo. I'm like WHAT???
So what ends up happening is if you raise pre here, sure you'll get it folded around often, but you also have a TON of dummies that re-raise allin on you - then you have to start guessing where you stand against their freaking 76/0 range? Could be AA or could be J4o - but unless you've watched him a ton, I think there's no freaking way to tell at this level!
Personally, I rather playing passive in this spot, and surprise 'em when I make a nice hand and I'm picking up their chips.

I know very little about the intricacies of poker, but I guess I know enough to ask this question:

If you were to do what you advocated 100,000 times, do you think you would

a) have as much profit as you might have had you played *correctly* as in raise preflop with good hands etc and

b) be profitable at all

If the answer to both of those questions is no, then what does anyone think about using Kjjo's method as a means to simply moving up to the next level (in this case 5nl or 10nl) then, when you are there, starting to play mathematically correct poker?

My personal opinion is that one should start as they mean to go on and that means playing mathematically sound poker from the get go; but I can also see that there might be some people that have succeeded beating 2nl and 5nl by playing a lot more hands preflop (by mixing in open limping their weaker hands with raising their stronger ones).

[d0zer]

I would raise pre (for value). I can see the argument "I suck postflop so I don't wanna get in bad spots" I guess.

Turn is an ez value raise. Morans will call you with gutshots, straight draws, any pair, worse nines, etc...

[Kijjo]

so EZ,
you're saying that mathematically sound poker is to always raise pre from the bb with A9o against 3 limpers? I'd have to disagree with you there.
you're going to be playing out of position postflop unless the only caller you get is sb. you're hand is NOT a premium hand, it's a playable hand.
using the term "mathematically sound poker" doesn't let us disregard our opponents. almost every decision in poker is somehow connected to what we think of our opponents.
in this case I'm making a generalization about what I think of most players at 2NL and giving feedback based on that. I'm simply saying that I personally like this move in this spot. If he's on the button raise away!
NOTE - I go quite aggro once I've made a hand - again depending on the opponent.

[d0zer]

raising pre HERE is good because you get called by worse a ton, including shit you dominate: any nine and worse aces.

Throw in a little postflop advantage on the average 2NL drooler (I know, I know...I'm asking a lot from the average BC'er) and you're well +EV even with the positional disadvantage.

If you don't think you have any postflop edge on 2NL morans and you're too scared to put yourself in moderately tough spots then don't raise.

[oskar]

idk about raising pre. blah blah out of position blah blah

flop call is fine, definitely lead turn, lead river tho.