25NL : 3bet pot. 2nd barrel ?

[Evilpopcorn]

Villian Stats : (VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)

SB: 21/14 [2 3 1] 0% over 319 hands
Fold to 3bet = 25% (1/4)
Fold to Cbet 3bet Pot = 50% (1/2)

BTN: 41/32 [inf 3 0] 6% over 172 hands

My Thoughts And Questions

I squeeze her for value as i have BTN's range crushed and can play AJ profitable vs the SB flatting range in position imo.

Flop is a standard cbet and his c/c line i now have his range as something like 22 55 99-QQ. I think a hand like AdKd would have c/r the flop.

Now of all the card i could double barrelt jam i would think that the K is the best card i can do it on. I am representing AA/KK AK very strongly which should leave the 99-QQ part of his range in a very tough spot. I think he definitaly folds out 99-TT, and i might get calls out of QQ-JJ. Also having the Jd i am sometimes gonna have a flush redraw. So should i jam ?

Also just to complicate things in the actual hands my connection died on me and i came back with 2seconds remaining and on the river 3c . In those 2seconds i decided that me disconnecting coming back and jamming actually makes me look like i was desperate to get it in making it hard for the 99-QQ part of his range to call. Would i be correct in my image adjustment in this scenario ?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players

Hero (BB): $28.35
UTG: $31.00
CO: $25.35
BTN: $82.65
SB: $53.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with J A
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.65, Hero raises to $3.25, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.25) 2 5 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.50, SB calls $4.50

Turn: ($16.25) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero?

[daven]

Flop is a standard cbet a

why?

also, does villain think you're a spewtard or solid?

[bigspenda73]

don't confuse value and profitability or expectation, this isn't a value-squeeze but there is "value" in it. Raising for value in poker implies that your opponents calling range should be behind your 3betting hand. In this hand that's not the case, if the SB calls twice it's certainly not the case. Your squeeze is going to be profitable if a few factors are present

-the button opens wide and folds to a decent amount of 3bets
-you don't cbet 552 flops against the most obvious ranges

[Evilpopcorn]

@bigspenda : yeah thats what i was trying to say when i said squeeze for "value". Cos SB calling range preflop had me beat even tho he doesnt fold a lot to 3bets in general. Just having position on that range and what i am able to represent i am able to get a lot of better hands to fold preflop and postflop. Hmmmm does this mean i raise my Hands for value vs the BTN and turn it into a profitable bluff vs the SB range?

@daven: Yeah that me being a default OMG LOLz 3bet pot i got initiative i betz move. I guess with his range being so obvious here checking behind is best. Then King peels off i can happy fire at it, which will then leave a kidan interesting river bluffing possibilty.

Also in general could you guys give me some idea on 2nd barrelling in 3bet pots. Sure i know RANGES RANGES RANGES, but if you guys can refer me to some cool articles or just some other dynamics to consider etc would really be appreciated. Will give the search function a go on the forum sometime also during my "study times".

[DaD01ng]

Flop is not standard cbet in my book. I would bet the turn with that K though and follow up on river.

As played though... Actually as played I have no idea what I'd do on the turn lol, I'd be put in a really weird spot because it's not guaranteed that villain will all of a sudden fold out all his minor pocket pairs. I dunno, I might just overbet shove and hope he folds, if he doesn't then I'm counting on a diamond or A to win me the pot, also I think a J can sometimes win me the hand too... But my stack is so awkward, I might actually just give up and hope for a diamond/A/J on river and put in a big bet there even if I don't hit...

Basically what I'm saying is I have no idea what to do on the turn and that by cbetting the flop I pretty much put myself in a really weird spot on the turn lol.

[BlueBull]

It does look a seriously good card to barrel imo... but its kind of committing and most 25nl players have made up there minds by the flop in 3 bet pots. Yuk. I dont know what to do here. Will def be following this thread though.

It does look a seriously good card to barrel imo... but its kind of committing

can't be committed on a bluff

btw, hate flop bet, check it back and fire the turn, he'll put you on AK every time

[BlueBull]

can't be committed on a bluff

Thats true - but we probably need to make sure of that with our bet sizing.

I mean given his likely shove over the top range we would need a ridiculous price to call profitably with our Jd and one overcard (like a little better than 5 to 1) but I think many of us less experienced players could easily bet a bit to much here... see 4 to 1... see a bit of a red mist at our bluff not working... see we have put two thirds of our stack in... hover over the call button... curse a little... and click!

Yeah I know its bad but I doubt Im the only one with that leak in these kind of spots which is why Im quite interested in this thread.

Interested in how much you actually bet here Popcorn???? Also interested in how much others think the bet should be given the hand as played? Somewhere around $8.5 enough?

Also when he flat calls the turn bet are you putting him on like TT-AA - (and probably with a diamond for the TT-QQ portion??) I guess we have to include 22 still and AdQd? One would imagine he folds other big broadways on the flop most of the time?

And finally Popcorn - from villains perspective - are we representing exactly AA/KK here only? Does this villain think we can have a lot of suited connectors/suited aces in our 3 bet range which might allow him to give us more credit for a flush?

Sorry - this post is a bit all over the place and a bit of ramble. I dont really think very well in these spots. Even with time on my hands..

[BlueBull]

By the way... my question regarding what we are representing is motivated by a horrible feeling that when we bet the river we are narrowing our value range so much that unless villain can give us credit for a lot of flushes he has to call with just about any made hand. (I mean we are surely checking behind Aces and AK lot leaving only really KK and flushes)

Putting myself in his shoes and trying to imagine what he might have its hard to find a fold to a river shove.

[JKDS]

aj is a bad 3b because if the btn continues with this very wide range
22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q9s+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43s ,32s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
then AJ only has 58% equity. Ya we're ahead, but that 8% is generally not enough to make up for our positional disadvantage.

against a more realistic calling range like....
22+,A5s+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,A9o+,KQo ,QJo,JTo
we only have 51% equity which is definately bad oop.

As the range gets tighter we find that we fair even worse, so we're definately 3betting as a bluff here and not for value against the button as spenda and others have said.

Cos SB calling range preflop had me beat even tho he doesnt fold a lot to 3bets in general. Just having position on that range and what i am able to represent i am able to get a lot of better hands to fold preflop and postflop. Hmmmm does this mean i raise my Hands for value vs the BTN and turn it into a profitable bluff vs the SB range?

since we're behind sb's calling range, but we expect we can get him to fold pretty often and have position on him which makes that much easier, we're definately 3betting as a bluff vs him as well.

Now imo, i would pick a different hand to 3b as a bluff here though. AJ has good enough equity vs the buttons opening range and theres enough in the pot to justify being oop that calling is definitely fine, so id rather pick something a tad bit weaker.

[bigspenda73]

in this spot I dont hate barreling b/c you're typically up against a 1st leveler, however against a thinker he'd assume you check back hands like AK on the flop and wouldn't bet hands like TT-QQ on the turn, maybe not even KK so your turn betting range becomes like AK/AA/air which means it sucks to be you.

I like checking back the flop and taking full advantage of 6 outs, plus as iopq said we can rep Q/K cards as well, meaning something like 25%+ of turns come good for us PLUS passive opponents may checks a high% of the other cards thus earning a free river as well.