Downswing HH #2

[wonderland]

it continues. I should take my roll to $300 with $2nl, would take me half the time.

I'll use the FTR display this time:

ONE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG wildshark2 ($10.00)
UTG+1 Hero ($5.02)
CO rouletdeler ($7.16)
BTN Scaps0090 ($3.60)
SB yalePT ($4.48)
BB sixhigh65 ($3.84)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 3 folds, sixhigh65 calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.42, 2 players)
sixhigh65 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.42, 2 players)
sixhigh65 checks, Hero bets $0.40, sixhigh65 calls $0.40

River: ($1.22, 2 players)
sixhigh65 bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

TWO
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG soyoung3445 ($6.62)
UTG+1 Hero ($8.14)
CO jacobtia ($4.29)
BTN bir_h2 ($5.00)
SB stully711 ($3.77)
BB Maroccian ($8.12)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 1 fold, bir_h2 raises to $0.55, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.17, 2 players)
Hero checks, bir_h2 checks

Turn: ($1.17, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, bir_h2 calls $0.60

River: ($2.37, 2 players)
Hero checks, bir_h2 checks

I wouldn't call here if i were him!

THREE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG cooljeru ($4.95)
CO lini1966 ($5.43)
BTN Dinalle ($5.41)
SB rlksquared ($5.65)
BB Hero ($5.15)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, lini1966 calls $0.05, Dinalle calls $0.05, rlksquared calls $0.03, Hero raises to $0.25, lini1966 folds, Dinalle calls $0.20, rlksquared folds

Flop: ($0.60, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, Dinalle calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.20, Dinalle calls $1.20

River: ($3.90, 2 players)
Hero checks, Dinalle bets $2, Hero calls $2

I get this shit all the time lately.

FOUR
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG blinderrr ($1.15)
UTG+1 TomWy ($1.95)
CO RenatoBS ($10.36)
BTN Hero ($4.93)
SB jeroen800 ($10.70)
BB whippercone ($2.83)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is BTN
blinderrr calls $0.05, 1 fold, RenatoBS calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, 1 fold, whippercone calls $0.15, blinderrr calls $0.15, RenatoBS folds

Flop: ($0.67, 3 players)
whippercone checks, blinderrr checks, Hero bets $0.55, whippercone calls $0.55, blinderrr folds

Turn: ($1.77, 2 players)
whippercone checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.77, 2 players)
whippercone bets $0.70, Hero folds

Final Pot: $1.77

whippercone wins $2.42 ( won +$0.97 )
Hero lost -$0.75
blinderrr lost -$0.20
RenatoBS lost -$0.05
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm getting beyond annoyed at this stage and just starting to lose motivation. Feels weird. Tonight i stepped back from the game and was like... hang on, this just isn't right. Every other day i win a buy in, every other day i lose a buy in. And always against very loose players who are playing about 50-60% of hands.

Like the above hand with the AQ, i was watching a grinderschool vid and was like, y'know what, fuck 'em, i am gonna 3 barrell with TPTK agains a station on a dry board. No more of this fearful folding shit. But this is often what's saving me from not breaking even but losing: just knowing that every time, they HAVE it. And i'm always punished when i just can't believe they do and i call. In my experience, which goes against most people's view of 5nl and similar, if you face ANY resistance, they own your soul. Even being floated. It's very rare i fire 2 or 3 in a row and get called by worse.

So yeah, in short, tonight i tried to play a bit more fearlessly but it didn't feel right. I'm starting to know that when i'm in an agro pot, if and i've hit or even hit big and they're still calling, i'm a dead man and i've spent about 12 buy-ins coming to terms with this. I feel all i can do is follow my reads and break even until this period passes.

The Poker Mindset should be with me by next week.

[Stacks]

Did you never learn how to bet preflop?

Did you never learn how to bet preflop?

it's ok bro
he bet the 20 cents

it r life changing moneys
no one will call

[XTR1000]

#1 You´ve got third nutso-nutsos, whats the point?

#2 Id just 4bet pre as it sucks playing 3bet pots oop. Postflop look goot, bet more on turn

#3 Looks fine, although Im betting the river usually. Vs a guy capable of spewing off on busted clubs c/c is fine.

#4 Rarely do I cbet this into two.


I dont get whats ur problem at all. Its not like they "always" have, thats simply not true and you know it. If you´re going to complain about how bad ur opponents are, you have to make the choice between "omg they call all that junk down" or "omg they always have it". first case scenario is the most likely and not going for 3 streets of value with TPTK is a sin.

[Parasurama]

stop framing your posts with the fact that you're in a downswing

[JKDS]

you guys know its 5nl right? so his preflop raise to .2 is only 4x...

kq and the aq hand i would bet a little more though, kq cuz there be limpers and aq cuz we be oop.

and ffs stop thinking in terms of "him having it". understand what a range is and how your hand matches up against his range...and not against just one particular hand that you guessed he had.

also, hand 1 has no turn action (we act 2nd), hand 2 i dont understand your comment as without any reads (post f-ing reads and stats) i give him a range of AJ+, JJ+ of which only AK would fold on the turn. hand 3 im mixed about betting vs c/calling. id probably bet since we get called by alot of jacks...but its easier to tell with reads (post dem). hand 4 could be standard...depends on the ranges of the limpers.

[Fnord]

You have bigger leaks. Find some random kid who used to beat 200NL and offer him clean clothes and a warm meal to look at a block of hands.

[wonderland]

Looking back i'm surprised at my pre flop raise amount. I think i'm going to start betting more and then check/folding more. At these stakes i mean. There are times when i raise 5x UTG+1 and get like 3 callers.

But if people aren't folding, i should be betting more. Like maybe cbet more than pot?

Maybe in loose games it should be 5x +1 for every limper?

Find some random kid who used to beat 200NL and offer him clean clothes and a warm meal to look at a block of hands.

Last night i dreamed there existed a dude on the forums who had mythical status of relentless poker success. He had this title of 'Gold Standard' or something, a level rarely attainable. God knows what it translates as, but i was daring myself to PM him.

Feel like fuckin van damme in kickboxer.

I did get sweated recently, that i need! and robb offered to but then has since been a bit quiet. If i was playing higher stakes i'd be getting coached, just not affordable at these stakes. Feels very very progressive though.

[T-Rex]

stop playing with such a baby back bitch amount of money. real talk

[Stacks]

stop playing with such a baby back bitch amount of money. real talk

What are you implying?

[dranger7070]

stop playing with such a baby back bitch amount of money. real talk

What are you implying?

That he buys in full at 10nl obviously. Cuz dats weher dem proz be at!

[wonderland]

needs them hand feedbacks. Everyone goes on at me to post them. Not really getting a great deal of specifics tho.

[Muzzard]

1. bet $0.30
2. 4b pre as I don't like playing AKo OOP without the initiative
3. make it bigger PF 4x + 1 all limpers so like 0.35c, I think it's fine otherwise
4. Again bigger pre, meh on the cbet

[T-Rex]

lol sorry i had just got home n super drunk before going to bed. still think u should move up haha

[Fnord]

needs them hand feedbacks.

I don't think your leaks are in the hands you're posting. There is my feedback.

k tnx g bai

[Stacks]

still think u should move up haha

And that's because the amount of money he is playing with is too small, right? Or is it because the skill level at those stakes is too bad to actually play poker? What's the reasoning for moving up?

[wonderland]

I don't think your leaks are in the hands you're posting.

STOP BEING ALL OBIWAN AND TELL ME WOT MY LEAKS ARE! hehe.
But no, seriously, do.

Dude, don't drink and post, it hazardous. And anyway, i HAD moved up and ran into a few issues which took my roll down.

NOW THEN...

Speaking to someone recently and, see, i had 20 buyinz for 10nl, actually like 21.5 and moved up coz i was KUH-RUSHING 5nl. But when i lost two buy-ins there i thought i had to move back down coz i was under rolled... but then i heard that spoon or some chap said that you can stay AT said stakes UNTIL you reach 30 buyinz at the previous stake, then you have to go back down and start again.

Discuss...

tbh, for FIIIIIIVE nl... i'm ok.... for FIVE. Or i wouldn't have crushed it in 10k hands. But i have general poker leaks that i want plugging good an proper before going to 10 coz i think it starts to get more serious from then on.

[AdamThePirate]

depends what your brm is. Some people operate 20/17, others 20/15... That is, 20bi move up, move down when 17bi, etc. Personally, I don't really like that brm, and I think 20BI is too low.

I'm waiting for 30bi's for each level up to $25nl, maybe 35/40 for $50.

[PlayToWin]

I say to play pot control w/TPTK. It's just one pair and not worth a big investment. Also play an overpair for pot control, but be more confident in making a River call or valuebet. Wait for better hands. It makes poker a lot easier. Learn to enjoy folding unless you have good reads. Even with reads, any villian can have you dominated. Maybe play more tables if it helps you play more conservatively. I'm not saying you should be a pussy, I'm just saing that TPTK isn't the nuts at the micros.

Also, you should immediately delete your negative sig quote. GL

[Stacks]

First off, regarding BRM, the number of buyins you have shouldn't be your only concern for moving up. Just because someone have 30 buyins for 1knl, doesn't mean they are ready to play 1knl. The same applies at the micros, but to a lesser extent because the skill doesn't change too awful much, and the skill change is easily conquerable with a little bit more study.

Also, while TPTK isn't the nuts, it sure is close in a lot of situations. When villains have the tendency to call 3 streets with TPNK, 2nd pair, draws then still call when they make a pair, etc, then TPTK is obviously going to have increasing equity against they range, as their range widens. It depends so much on the situation and villain, you can't say play a pot control game with TPTK, or to go for 3 streets of value all the time. It is very dependent.

[dranger7070]

I say to play pot control w/TPTK. It's just one pair and not worth a big investment. Also play an overpair for pot control, but be more confident in making a River call or valuebet. Wait for better hands. It makes poker a lot easier. Learn to enjoy folding unless you have good reads. Even with reads, any villian can have you dominated. Maybe play more tables if it helps you play more conservatively. I'm not saying you should be a pussy, I'm just saing that TPTK isn't the nuts at the micros.

Also, you should immediately delete your negative sig quote. GL

I bet to differ. Like stax said, its not the nuts ALL the time vs certain opponents, but I'd say a great deal more than 1/2 the time it will be the best hand vs the majority of calling at 2nl and 5nl. 10nl you have to be SLIGHTLY more leery with it, such as not stacking off with it ALL THE TIME, but obviously this is read dependent.

TPTK, along with two pair and sets, is going to be your bread and butter at the micros.

[wonderland]

yeah i'm starting to think 30 buy ins these days.

sig by the way is kind of possitive in that it reminds me to never get complacent.

yes, true stacks, i'm moving up to 10nl when i'm ready as opposed to when the bankroll tells me.

I have one point though that has been true FOR ME having grinded away at 5nl for 6 weeks. TPTK keeps turning into jelly beyond and even on the flop a LOT more than people think at 5 unless you're playing someone who has hardly any poker expience, and i'm talking HARDLY. People are calling for the wrong reasons such as: it would be cool if i hit. Rather than thinking about odds. Like today, had such a shit hand, i had TPTK and he value towned the SHIT out of me to the river where, and only where, he hits taking my whole stack. He was going apeshit on a draw.

Now, fine, it's not profitable for him to do that and he's gonna lose but when you get a lot of people with that mindset, you're going through 2-3 streets with a lot of 'em. And the TPTK thing is quite weak more often than is.... well... comfortable.

So, learning to fold is key, unless you actually go: shit, he does just raise with nothing! then when you see someone suddenly raise, you'd better believe they have it. I've lost a lot of buy-ins going: nah, this is 5nl, they can't have me beat here, they call with worse right?

Just had to re-type that, trying to get my point across, but i THINK what i'm saying is, they're calling, i find, with suited anythings, connected anythings, Ax. And they can find stack-destroying spots. Oh and they do fold when you proper hit too, you'd think they wouldn't but they also aint THAT stupid. Unfortunately. There are exceptions to this but it's becoming the norm. I play CET and i wonder if european players are.... different or something?? are all the fish in the States? along with all the best poker players in the world

This response is too long.

[XTR1000]

I say to play pot control w/TPTK. It's just one pair and not worth a big investment. Also play an overpair for pot control, but be more confident in making a River call or valuebet. Wait for better hands. It makes poker a lot easier. Learn to enjoy folding unless you have good reads. Even with reads, any villian can have you dominated. Maybe play more tables if it helps you play more conservatively. I'm not saying you should be a pussy, I'm just saing that TPTK isn't the nuts at the micros.

Also, you should immediately delete your negative sig quote. GL

This is terrible terribad advice. I dont know where those "pot control with TP/OP"-mantras come from, but it´s just so dumb. Realize that there isn´t general advice on postflop hands to be made. Read about a concept called "relative hand strength" and begin to base your actions not solely on the two cards in front of you.

[Fnord]

I don't think your leaks are in the hands you're posting.

STOP BEING ALL OBIWAN AND TELL ME WOT MY LEAKS ARE! hehe.
But no, seriously, do.

Would need to see a block of hands.

[wonderland]

Would need to see a block of hands.

Are you suggesting i offer YOU the warm meal?

[Fnord]

No, I have live players to pick on and make vastly more money doing that than I ever made online.

[wonderland]

mmmm, steak.

I once saw a british sci-fi tv sitcome where they had a luck syrum that they inject and become lucky. Maybe have sum of that like a flu jab.

Failing that, i need a coach coz i think a lot of poker concepts hurt my brains and i need them explaining to me. 5nl coaches... lordy.

[Keith]

what are your stats like? for instance I naturally play a pretty LAGGY sort of game that gravitates towards 30 22 . I wrote that before looking at my PT and actual stats over 7732 hands is

seat    hands    VPIP    PFR    steal   3bet  WTSD    W$SD  
btn       1501     48.5  38.30 57.69    4.3    26.88   52.94 
1         1381     29.04 23.82 27.96    1.6    24.07   47.69
2         1178     21.73 16.98          3.16   28.57   51.72     
3          653     20.21 16.08           0     31.11   42.86               
BB        1503     17.03  9.05          3.79   22.79   42.08     
SB        1516     42.94 20.51 51.03    5.46   21.44   45.79

Total     7732     31.35 21.42 42.6     4.13   24.35   46.97

interesting to see how these compare with the hands you have on me in your PT , im guessing they'll be pretty similar. I've got you running 21/15 over 33 hands

[Jack Sawyer]

5nl coaches... lordy.

I wrote a really wrong response, but then deleted it and kept just the 3 last bullet points.

*stop looking for leaks (in the sense of: EVErYTIME I LOOK AT MY CASHEIR THERE IS LESS MONEY IN THERE WTF LEAKS DO I HAVE). Try to understand the game in and of itself, not how player A (who happens or not to be a big winner) plays it. If you understand it at least in some part, you will slowly understand what you are doing wrong and how to either stop doing it or make use of it without having to pay some random dude $50+ an hour to tell you.
* you push yourself too hard. Stop.
* you seem to think there is some kind of mystical magic to poker. Somehow, those who are winning at some point have been touched by this mystic or whatever similar bullshit.
There just isn't, pal. Get over it.

No, I have live players to pick on and make vastly more money doing that than I ever made online.

yeah because you play NL100 with 500 buyins BRM

[wonderland]

Hey Mr Keith. My stats are around 24/12 ish. I'm tending to limp with implied odds hands if i look ahead of me and see a few zeros in people's PFR and a calling station, incase i hit. Thinking of tightening further to like 18/X.

30 hands is obviously too small a sample range to call on but your stats on me seem reasonable. It's good when you're on a table with another decent player and you show eachother respect while taking it in turns to eat the fish keep meaning to try your short handed thing.

Sawyer. Ha, i think i actually need a poker counsellor lol. The Poker Mindset shall arrive soon, maybe that will help.

Your first point is interesting because, ok, after last night's abysmal session where i lost almost a buy in then tried some 2nl and was the shitty side of breaking even, i was quite depressed, not just because of that session but because i've been learning some really good stuff lately and just dying at the tables still. Tried playing less tables and everything, REALLY focusing.

Thing is, it's just a weird break even stretch, WEIRD. Coz i fucking PWND 5nl for 10k hands when i first started playing it. Now i'm studying a lot and getting killed by 60/10 players. Like last night i had this loose station to my left and i was waiting for my spot, got two hearts, hit two on the flop, played a bit of pot control, stoking it but just enough, hit the heart on the river. Bet, get raised.. hmm, they only bet when they have it is my experience, so i call, fucker had the ACE high flush, so it's a repetition of that kind of thing that's happening repeatedly.

Now, bitch or not, let's take the emotion out of the equation, that's been the sort of thing that's killing me and these things (obviously besides the leaks but i feel the leaks should NOT be costing me this much at THESE stakes):

- not getting many decent cards. Fine, whatever.
- getting cards but:
missing against the fish
everyone folds (when i finally get KK)
hit but the fish hits bigger or calls and hits bigger
miss but hit some good draws but they don't hit
get called by two or more players and miss or if i hit, i now have two stations to fight off
get rivered or the hand that makes my hand ends up killing me

Now then, again, that's not me complaining, that's the symptoms of on a hand by hand basis what's happening to me in the last 12k hands and it's very strange, like it feels implausible. I actually think that to be fair, the skills i HAVE learned have given me the privelage of breaking even during SUCH relentless bullshit.

you push yourself too hard. Stop.

This seemed contrary to the poker ethos of hard work but it did strike a chord in me. I think you're right. I stress about poker all the time lately and try thinking of the 102nd way i can stop breaking even. Everything up to and including playing while standing on my head chanting with a playing card wedged under each armpit.

So i wonder if i need a break or something. But i do acknowledge that better players than me breakeven. I think i just feel that shouldn't happen at these stakes is all. ESPECIALLY when you throw 21/15 stats in against 60/10 fish.

[Micro2Macro]

My stats are around 24/12 ish.

This needs some work, not saying that you should aim for a specific target stat, but please read the article on raising behind limpers, and blind stealing 101 and apply the concepts. Your PFR should get closer to your VP$IP. If it doesn't, you're doing it wrong.

Now then, again, that's not me complaining, that's the symptoms of on a hand by hand basis what's happening to me in the last 12k hands and it's very strange, like it feels implausible. I actually think that to be fair, the skills i HAVE learned have given me the privelage of breaking even during SUCH relentless bullshit..

K, winning in poker is not a privelage, nor is it a right. It's just a side effect of good solid play, which is a side effect of thoroughly understanding the basic concepts of the game, and being able to put your opponent on a RANGE of hands. Don't feel like just because you've played 12k hands you deserve profit. You don't. You waste all your time complaining about how you should be winning, yet you don't seem to be doing enough in regards to trying to figure out why you're not winning. And don't even start with this 'hand to hand' basis garbage. By reviewing the hands you've posted, it's clear you've got leaks which would be a result of an incorrect thought process.

But i do acknowledge that better players than me breakeven. I think i just feel that shouldn't happen at these stakes is all.

Wrong. Better players will win more money than you. And as for 'feeling it shouldn't happen', it will continue to happen if you don't open your eyes and realize your game needs some serious work. It's not other's fault that you suck, it's your own. Stop blaming things on the cards, or the calling stations, because that's not it.

We all get dealt the same cards, and we'll all run into the same shit. It's what you do to manage the cards that counts. If you think differently, there are plently of slot machines available for people with this mindset.

Hint: study ranges, study ranges, study ranges.

[Fnord]

No, I have live players to pick on and make vastly more money doing that than I ever made online.

yeah because you play NL100 with 500 buyins BRM

My regular games are all $5/$10 NLHE. One place has a $1k cap (top-off rule), the other a $400 cap (can re-buy for +$400 when you're under $200.) If you like multi-way pots and loose action the $400 is a much better game, you just need to commit to playing there for long enough to build a stack.

[dranger7070]

Wat are ranges?

[Micro2Macro]

Wat are ranges?

popsicle

[wonderland]

Better players will win more money than you

But they do breakeven over long periods at times is my point, and i get told off by a mid/small staker if i complain about breaking even at my stakes. That my point.

I keep searching for that holy grail, like an article by ISF

"So, to improve your win rate dramaticaly...." and i'm like, this is it, this is it! Print the fukkin list out, shred it, sprinkle it on my cornflakes and when i fart, it smells like +EV.

So, ranges. Dranger also pointed this out after i was ranting about getting rivered... so that's my next thing. He said, as others i think have, that i tend to put people on one hand, although i'm getting ok at that, i need to work on this concept. So there's a bit about ranges here by ISF:

http://poker-strategy.flopturnriver....y-Articles.php

Maybe someone could tell me if that's the sort of thing (specifically the thing about ranges) i'm stuck on?

Also, another point mentioned in that thread:

I feel like most of the problems with people stuck at low and midstakes is they have tirelessly listened and applied the advice of players who are better then them, but they have no idea why they are doing what they are doing and therefore start having giant leaks in their game

I think this is me totally. Er... ok, i should be doing this now, oops.

The WORST thing one can do is watch Durrr play high stakes poker and then go: aaah, interesting, maybe *i* should open with 94s. ISF also said to: bet bet bet bet bet raise bet bet raise. Sort of tried that gingerly but just got told to eff off by the other players as they raised me.

I guarantee you that after say 10K hands at your level the higher stakes people won't break even
the reason that higher stakes people have swings is because their edge is lower at the higher stakes

[surviva316]

i cbet first hand with my 6 outs, but first off that's debatable so i wouldn't really call it a leak, second off don't really see a problem with anything else.
second hand is played fine post flop.
didn't read past there

[wonderland]

Possitive Realisation: gonna have to get mystical i think, but, on my summery stroll during my lunch break, i had the idea that, this breakeven stretch has forced me to learn/study more than i would have had i been running good. I choose to see it as a gift from the poker lords that i must learn more. I'm probably playing better now (during my breakeven stretch) than when i had my 10k run from $110 - $210 BR. Since then i've zig zagged to $205 for 12k.

Ok, ISF talks WAAAY over my head, so, realisation II: as a mircroman, a lot of poker concepts go over my head, there's still a few basic terms that i'm too ashamed to admit that i don't know what they mean. So i need some abc finger puppet style teachings. Even then, applying the stuff! like, hands with variable equity... aaargh!

That book, PNL, someone said it was available as a downloadable ebook somewheres?

[Luco]

You'd probably find it on eBay as an ebook.

I don't mean to cause offence wonderland, but are you bipolar?

One minute you're all:


And the next you're all:


Or is it just because you're really passionate about things you get involved in?

[Schya]

10k hands isn't a big enough sample wonderland. Why not try taking a couple days off to read up on things like ranges( something i am struggling with) and things. and then reread it twice more. Come back in a few days and pick your game back up. I sometimes have to read things a few times before they start to set in.

[wonderland]

I don't mean to cause offence wonderland, but are you bipolar?

LOOOL!

ha, that's ace, great pics. Little correction, i'm never all

so that's that polar extreme out of the equation. I'm always... hmph, pocket aces, what's the point.

But you're absolutely right, i'm apeshit passionate about everything in life, i either FFUUUUUKKKKING love it or I'M GONNA FKEKEKEKING DESTROY IT!!! *puff, pant, puff, pant*

Not the best cybord/android esque poker mindset. Some of the high stakes online vids i've seen almost put me into a trance the poster is so lathargic.

[Micro2Macro]

what's your Went to showdown and Won $ at showdown stats.

[wonderland]

WTSD (5nl 6max): 21.86 @ 12k hands

W$SD: 56.73

i tell a big lie!! shit. my rise from the start of 5 to the end took about 8k hands, my breakeven stretch has been around 7k. So short samples. Maybe i wouldn't be so down about it if the process has been smooth rather then BAM then BEEEEEE (flat line).

Mirco, can you help me understand the stats you asked for please. Thanky.

[dranger7070]

Basically, went to showdown shows you how much you are seeing the river. If its higher than say 30-35% you are probably a calling station/calling down too much with marginal hands. Although, your 21/22% seems to be good, even though you are at 6max. My stats at FR are like 25-25% WTSD and my WSSD is like 55% so you may need to open up your value betting range.

Your W$SD just shows the quality of hands you are taking to showdown (ie, if you were taking shit hands to showdown all the time, you would have a lower than 50% stat.) However, opposed to that, if you have like a 60-65% (and you're not on a heater) you probably aren't value betting enough of your "good" hands, and are only taking your stronger/strongest hands to showdown.

Seems to me like you should open up you v-betting range, your W$SD stat will drop (slightly) at first because you won't be picking the right spots, but as you get better at exploiting opponents tendencies, it will pick back up, and you will be making more monies than before.

Am I close to what you were looking for micro?

[wonderland]

ah, this is intriguing....

so you may need to open up your value betting range

Now then, i sort of know what this means but can you explain more, maybe give an example. Am i playing my hands too passively or something?

glad my stats are in line, they're almost identical to my 2nl stats, so they're quite consistent.

[dranger7070]

It's kinda tough for me to give an example, although Im sure I have many, because I dont have HEM or PT so I would have to dig through raw HH's, but I'm sure someone else could give a "real" example. I just typed a shit ton of stuff for an example, then realized it was a terrible example lol. So I'll try again, this one MUCH less longwinded.

Basically one might be, is you have like a weak ace or K like AT or K9 and a A or K flops. You would probably lead the or bet out after a loose/passive villain checks. After he calls, I check back most turns for pot control plus you are letting weaker hands stay in his range that you can get value out of on the river(Like worse A2-A9, K2-K8, and yes these guys WILL limp/call and call post flop bets with that shit). Once the river hits and no obvious draws complete, you can fire another bet out here. Usually between 1/2 and 2/3 pot. You want to bet enough to get value out of his marginal holdings, but you don't want to bet so much that he folds most of his crap hands and only calls with better. Easy value there.

That was like the most simplified example ever, but I think you understand. If you want another example, I'll play a session later and post a spot from it up on here.

[wonderland]

hmm, not sure i would pull that off correctly myself. I think i'd feel vulnerable a) betting weak top pair and b) letting them see 2 free cards.

I have found success in checking weak top pair on the flop to see if anyone else claims it (OOP). Then as further streets unfold i can feel safe to bet out. Thing is though, at those times you get no value coz they're just done with their hands at that point.

Read an interesting email from Roy Rounder today about how more bad beats happen online because players are looser due to the psychology of online gambling Vs real life gambling. People play a bit more wild and chase things because they don't fully appreciate the monetary loss. In that environment, good hands can often suffer. I had a similar back and forth on either this thread or the one about bet sizing, where someone said that TPTK/TPGK can be overestimated at these stakes, but his view was contested. I tend to agree, it's rare for me to get floated on TPTK vs TP shit/no/weak/mediocre kicker. Rounder advocates looking for monster hands. That said, he may well be leaning towards SNGs in his poker view.

[Stacks]

I'm tired of sweeping generalizations. Stop thinking in terms of what your hand is. When you stop saying "I have TPTK, I suppose I should pot control because they always have it", you will stop sucking as much. Start saying "My TPTK is ahead of his range, I'm betting for value because I have enough equity to warrant it. I don't give a fuck if they have it this time, it is the correct play".

[wonderland]

look, i'm not saying that if i hit TPTK i'm going to relax, i'll always fast play but if someone starts playing back or goes all in, i'm not going to be happy. In poker in general this is a fair or obvious statement but everyone has this idea that 90% of players @ 5nl will go apeshit for top pair weak kicker. This is reasonably rare.

I used to call the all-in or fire three streets betting 4/5 pot and then realise i'm totally behind at showdown. Now i'm having to really relax things and be cautious.

[WillburForce]

I think a lot of micro-stakes players believe (as Jack S touched on) that there is a sudden epihany where all hands/poker become clear. This just isn't the case. The microstakes are all about building your roll through solid BRM and making as few mistakes as possible. AB to the MOFOing C.

I currently play $50nl and am still learning. But I play every hand as it comes. Good notes on players, get a feel for the table. Is a 3x raise gonna get 2/3 callers on this table? Do I want this? Do I want to raise more to isolate? Should I just fold? Is flatting any good here? Whats my plan on the flop? Does this player/s fold to a C-bet, fold to Turn aggression?

It's not just "I have A-Q and have raised, then 3 fish have called WTF! They've called my C-Bet aswell!!!! F*ck The PokerGods!"

I'd advocate playing 1 or 2 tables, no HUD, try getting some notes and just getting a feel for a table. Find the fish and exploit them.

[Stacks]

Umm... Yeah. I'm also not saying to "always fast play". I'm saying you need to correctly learn to evaluate the situation. If you feel that TPTK is ahead of his range, you then take the line most indicative of getting money in the pot while you still have enough equity to warrant it. If you don't feel that TPTK is good, then you decide if you can still put money in, and if not, you fold. Start using a little bit of logic and reasoning, or at least more than you are.

"I'll always fast play but if someone starts playing back or goes all in, i'm not going to be happy."

(1) Villain is 97/40/7 after 300 hands. You have AJ and raise preflop and he calls. Flop is J73tt. You cbet, and he raises. How are you not going to be happy here?

(2) Villain is 10/8/3 after 300 hands. You have AJs and raise preflop and he calls IP. Flop is J73tt. You cbet, and he raises. Yes, it's obvious you can be a little worried here. However, if it's still correct to continue (not saying it is always, ldo), but if it is, then you should do so. Not because "he doesn't have it this time", and likewise you shouldn't fold because "they always have it". You should either fold or continue because your equity + pot odds, etc tells you to do so.

I know I've said that the majority of microstakes players are fish. This is 100% true. If you believe otherwise you are either ignorant or fooling yourself. Yeah, it's been said that most players go apeshit with TPNK, etc. While, they do likely overplay it, this is not the only way to be a fish. They are making loads and loads of mistakes that if you were good enough, you would be exploiting. Playing a weak/passive/tight game just because you don't understand ranges, poker, etc., probably isn't the worst thing ever, but it isn't the ideal situation either, and you shouldn't act as if microstakes are difficult because they aren't sitting at the table with you and transferring money to your account.

"I used to call the all-in or fire three streets...".

I understand what your saying. But as I said, you have to stop thinking on such a short term, and you have to realize that the situation is always different. Maybe you should have stopped calling that guy's allin with your TPTK. Doesn't mean you shouldn't call that other guy over there. It's seems to me as if you are still very much so thinking on the first level, and only worrying about your cards a large % of the time. You need to get over this to start progressing.

[wonderland]

why is it that my posts keep getting to the top??

I ask too many questions. My teachers of all disciplines from martial arts to fitness instruction tell me that a lot.

I think my attitude has shifted subtley and suddenly, i think i've lost patience with being grumpy, i just want to nail it. Here's some points worth mentioning, things i've tried, things i need help on.

- Bought The Poker Mindset, waiting for it to arrive. That should help me a lot.
- I think i'm really stuck on the ranges thing, i will try and put people on hands all the time but stuff about ranges keeps coming up.
- Realised how hard it is for poker concepts to sink in for me, i've been reading little articles about equity and fold equity and i'm still very very rusty/vague.
- Reading a lot of articles but they go over my head, i sort of read going: umm, ok, i sort of get that but have no idea what to DO with it.
- Interesting point: In the depths of my psychology, i think i realised that i was expecting to just get away with not much study until i hit 25nl but it turns out that the push for growth is so stunted that i'm doing all the studying now! and i didn't expect it. So i've taken it on board that, even though my stakes are fishy as hell, i still have to get my hands dirty.
- My main issue though is how to learn, best way is for someone to explain to me in real time but that aint really gonna happen until higher stakes when i'm getting coached, so i have to find the next best way.
- edit: oh, and the other problem i find is that the average player leaves a table between 30/40 hands and it's around then that i've built my read on them.

As usual, thanks stacks.

[JKDS]

ranges are easy. jack raises to 3x and is a 10/9/2 that never raises pocket pairs smaller than 77s and over values broadways. what hand does he have?

the answer is impossible. he can be doing this with any hand within the range {88+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs+} (this might be wider than 9% but who cares). the point is that online we dont get enough information from physical tells to be able to soulread realiably. thats the point of ranges. then you would calculate your equity against any particular hand, apply how often he'll have that hand, and sum it up.

[Ragnar4]

why is it that my posts keep getting to the top??

I ask too many questions. My teachers of all disciplines from martial arts to fitness instruction tell me that a lot.

I think my attitude has shifted subtley and suddenly, i think i've lost patience with being grumpy, i just want to nail it. Here's some points worth mentioning, things i've tried, things i need help on.

- Bought The Poker Mindset, waiting for it to arrive. That should help me a lot.
- I think i'm really stuck on the ranges thing, i will try and put people on hands all the time but stuff about ranges keeps coming up.
- Realised how hard it is for poker concepts to sink in for me, i've been reading little articles about equity and fold equity and i'm still very very rusty/vague.
- Reading a lot of articles but they go over my head, i sort of read going: umm, ok, i sort of get that but have no idea what to DO with it.
- Interesting point: In the depths of my psychology, i think i realised that i was expecting to just get away with not much study until i hit 25nl but it turns out that the push for growth is so stunted that i'm doing all the studying now! and i didn't expect it. So i've taken it on board that, even though my stakes are fishy as hell, i still have to get my hands dirty.
- My main issue though is how to learn, best way is for someone to explain to me in real time but that aint really gonna happen until higher stakes when i'm getting coached, so i have to find the next best way.
- edit: oh, and the other problem i find is that the average player leaves a table between 30/40 hands and it's around then that i've built my read on them.

As usual, thanks stacks.

Have you read professional NL holdem yet?

I really wonder if your problem seems to stem from a demonstrated misunderstanding of SPR.

[wonderland]

google..... ah, stack to pot ratio. No, i haven't read up on that, nor bought the book yet. It's on my list though.

I'd like it if someone could comment on my list of issues, they're quite concise.

Doing a bit better at tonight's session, had more icky all-ins but my interim plays have been tight enough to keep me in profit, i think some stuff is slooowly coming together. And i think that' how it's gonna go, little pieces coming together and clicking. Poker seems to be a pieces game rather than, right, done it now, next level etc.

Y'all should keep an eye out coz there's gonna be a decent sweat session coming up where i and others? are going to be analyzed and a rather good thread made of the session's results. Shan't say more as it aint my call.

[Ragnar4]

Yeah. Buy that book. take cash out of your roll if you have to.

It's been that important to my game.

[wonderland]

i feel your passion sir, i shall follow your advice.

sep i do have the money really, i just exercise great BRM in my real life too

but Poker Mindset was my monthly book treat, so i get that next.