cliffs on poker law

[aka_red]

hey i was just looking into all this shit and was surprised to see that something is going on in june i guesS?? im mostly worried about having to redic taxes on my stars balance. can anyone fill me in with what is going on with all that shit?

[BooG690]

We're waiting for it to be passed on to the House for a vote. It'll then go to the Senate and then go to Obama. I'll probably be signing onto IRC right now if you want to discuss.

[Micro2Macro]

big 'way to go' for those who have been pushing regulation so hard

this is what you get for wanting the gov' involved with the flow of money

fuck everyone who supported that shit we really have no idea what kind of hole is being dug

inb4 10% rake

[Hawk]

What do you mean "what you get"? I get to (hopefully) play poker legally, and more importantly the general public will be more willing to play. Games should be better, it'll be far easier to get money on and off of sites.

[Micro2Macro]

poker is legal, no?

you should be concerned about the government stepping in regarding anything that involves money.

look at what happened with pokerstars.fr

[aka_red]

Stars.fr rake is retarded high.

[Hawk]

poker is legal, no?

you should be concerned about the government stepping in regarding anything that involves money.

look at what happened with pokerstars.fr

You are correct, it is not legal (here). It still might not be legal if this passes, but I don't suspect we'd opt out for long if we do. Even in places where it is legal, until it's regulated it will be thought of as illegal, which is enough to keep joe shmoe away from the games.

And I didn't follow the French stuff very closely, but I haven't seen anything in the current stuff being pushed here that would force such a rake hike like they have in France.

Casino's are regulated, who has problems with that? In an industry where it's so important that the sites be trusted, I'd rather have some oversight into how they are running things.

[Micro2Macro]

<m2mfood> poker is illegal
<m2mfood> y
<m2mfood> n
<m2mfood> ?
<@spoon_afk> is there a law against poker where you live
<m2mfood> no
<@spoon_afk> then rather obviously it's not illegal
<m2mfood> ldo
<@spoon_afk> if ppl would apply this logic to themselves, this shit wouldn't get so out of hand
<m2mfood> funny like
<m2mfood> everyone bitched about the games on stars and letting short stackers play in games with 100bb stacks
<m2mfood> now everyone wants the 20-50bb game gone
<yaawnisokay> ll
<yaawnisokay> lol
<m2mfood> which is exactly what they asked for in the first place....
<yaawnisokay> ldo
<m2mfood> cept like
<@spoon_afk> lol yeah
<yaawnisokay> the shortstacking thing isn't as bad
<m2mfood> if you ask for regulation
<m2mfood> and you get it
<yaawnisokay> cuz ppl can't rathol as much
<m2mfood> that shit isn't just gonna dissapear
<m2mfood> ive said it b4
<m2mfood> and ill say it again
<m2mfood> in b4 10% rake
<@spoon_afk> people don't want regulation, they want the government to stop trying to force the banks to do their job for them
<m2mfood> yeah
<m2mfood> but like
<m2mfood> no one really knows what regulation is going to do
<m2mfood> they just want to gamble and hope magically mirrions of fish just start depositing



<m2mfood> did you know the state of new york charges tax on your net winnings but does NOT allow you to subtract net loss?
<@spoonitnow> a handful of states do
<yaawn> LOLWAITWAT
<@spoonitnow> ohio too i think
<m2mfood> does that mean
<m2mfood> if u win
<m2mfood> 1 mirrion at tables
<yaawn> so that one month I "won" 170k
<m2mfood> and lose 900k
<m2mfood> you pay tax on 1 mirrion?
<yaawn> and lost like 161k
<@spoonitnow> yes m2m
<m2mfood> LOL
<m2mfood> SEE
<m2mfood> GOVERNMENT
<m2mfood> DOESNT UNDERSTAND
<m2mfood> JACK SHIT
<m2mfood> WHEN IT COMES TO POKER
<yaawn> even like
<m2mfood> WHY THE FUCK
<m2mfood> DO WE WANT
<m2mfood> GOVERMENT
<yaawn> 2% taxed on that
<@spoonitnow> if you play tournaments and break even with $1 million in buy-ins
<m2mfood> TO REGULATE THIS?
<yaawn> would be so fucking much
<@spoonitnow> then you owe taxes on $1 million

[Hawk]

What you owe on taxes for your poker winnings is the same whether it's regulated or not. There are no new taxes on players in the current bills.

Arguing over existing gambling tax laws is something else entirely.

[kiwiMark]

and what of new taxes on the sites themselves?

[Micro2Macro]

i don't think you understand the point

[a500lbgorilla]

lol this is what you dumbasses get dumbasses!

After a nebulous ruling on the legality of online poker, what moron asks for the game to become legal???????

Don't you get it! THE GOVT WILL TAKE EVERYTHING! Prepare for 150% rake, and forced labor camps!

such dumbasses, why dont you read this circlejerking conversation I had with people who think exactly like me

our laughter is about you btw, that should show you how ridiculous you look.

[Illfavor]

The status quo really couldn't last m2m. As far as the U.S. Department of Justice is concerned, internet poker is illegal. Eventually it would have to be regulated or the law clarified to the point that it was illegal without exception, so I'm really not sure what your argument is. We as players obviously want a solution that is most beneficial to us, but the reality is that most forms of decent regulation seem like they'll allow the online poker community the continue thriving.

[Illfavor]

I mean did anyone honestly think the gov't would be like "Hahaha ok internet gambling is legal and you can just do it w/little or no accountability forever lol kthxgaiz!!"???

[bigred]

If you won more money it wouldn't be a big deal!

[Micro2Macro]

The status quo really couldn't last m2m. As far as the U.S. Department of Justice is concerned, internet poker is illegal. Eventually it would have to be regulated or the law clarified to the point that it was illegal without exception, so I'm really not sure what your argument is. We as players obviously want a solution that is most beneficial to us, but the reality is that most forms of decent regulation seem like they'll allow the online poker community the continue thriving.

do you have trouble logging on to your poker account or receiving your money from poker?

[a500lbgorilla]

Yup, I just tried to log in, it prompted me to download and install new updates and had some sort of error saying I should contact poker stars.

Once the gov't comes in, that crap will be cleared right up.

[bigred]

The monkey plays poker?

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't play poker. My opponents play poker. I dissect the very essence of their souls.

[spoonitnow]

As far as the U.S. Department of Justice is concerned, internet poker is illegal.

Too bad nobody gives a shit. Just because the DoJ says something doesn't make it the law.

[Illfavor]

do you have trouble logging on to your poker account or receiving your money from poker?

Nope, but did you really think things would stay that way for 30 years without anyone making a move?

[Illfavor]

Too bad nobody gives a shit. Just because the DoJ says something doesn't make it the law.

...okay? That doesn't mean they don't have any ability to make things more difficult for us.

[Micro2Macro]

Nope

so what's the problem?

[a500lbgorilla]

problem?

[kevster]

Doesn't the argument go something like this......

Poker Community: We want to be able to deposit freely and play poker against anybody we choose on any site we choose.

Govt: We want to protect our revenue.

Poker Community: But we already pay tax.

Govt: We're not so sure about that, there maybe a slice of the pie we're missing out on. This internet thing is way out of hand. We're going to make it as difficult as possible for you to deposit/withdraw for now.

Stop me if I'm wrong but nothing has really changed in this scenario, there's simply been some movement in the govt stance in conjunction with making sure they have more control over what goes on. It's perhaps confusing/frustrating but they haven't said exactly what that will entail so should people be panicked and angry by this? In my opinion, no. Or, at least, not yet.

The fact that local laws seemingly over-ruling national ones such as the business in NY only serve to blur the lines on the issue. I guess this is an upshot of the underlying structure of the US. It probably has very positive implications in many instances but fuck-me-in-the-ass-where's-my-bankroll-gone-i-have-a-huge-tax-bill in others.

[Illfavor]

so what's the problem?

The world is less cut/dry than that?

[spoonitnow]

...okay? That doesn't mean they don't have any ability to make things more difficult for us.

They're not going to take you to jail and keep you there for playing unlimited holdem on the internets unless it's illegal.

[andy-akb]

They're not going to take you to jail and keep you there for playing unlimited holdem on the internets unless it's illegal.

I dont really think anybody honestly feels like that is a threat, however, simply saying that poker is legal so why do we need legislation misses the point almost entirely.

I do not have much of an issue playing or cashing out, however, those are just _my_ issues, the big issue of depositing is something that many _other_ players still have and those are many of the players that I would like to have at my table. The sites have done a good job of making it as easy as they can to play poker, but it would without a doubt be easier to deposit [especially large amounts of money] if it were regulated.

Further, regardless of what the law currently states, the general public perception is that online poker is illegal. This alone prevents a lot of people from playing.

As far as potential for higher rake, I dont think we really have much to go on for that. It happened in France, but Im not sure how similar their law is with the one being considered here. With that said, Im not sure what the current rake is there, but I do know that pokerstars lowered it in response to the demands of the players. Further, in the US there would be much more competition, so there will always be other options and if players stop playing at one site because of the rake, they will most likely respond.

Bottom line is that nobody really knows what exactly will happen, but those who are most informed seem to be optimistic and I agree. I expect regulated games will have a much larger, and fishier, player pool which will more than offset any potential extra rake

[BooG690]

I'm gonna agree with Andy. The logic behind "since the rake went up in France, it will go up here" is rather faulty. Either way, all we can do is speculate and arguing over something this speculative is rather foolish.

[Illfavor]

NH Andy. I'll just give spoon/m2m the benefit of the doubt and say they're lvling and not just that short-sighted.

[wufwugy]

Increased rake and several other potential issues will easily be an enormous problem if the bills are not drafted well, and that's something PPA has had some struggles with.

Zero percent chance we get a new law this year though.

[meeloche]

I dont really think anybody honestly feels like that is a threat, however, simply saying that poker is legal so why do we need legislation misses the point almost entirely.

I do not have much of an issue playing or cashing out, however, those are just _my_ issues, the big issue of depositing is something that many _other_ players still have and those are many of the players that I would like to have at my table. The sites have done a good job of making it as easy as they can to play poker, but it would without a doubt be easier to deposit [especially large amounts of money] if it were regulated.

Further, regardless of what the law currently states, the general public perception is that online poker is illegal. This alone prevents a lot of people from playing.

As far as potential for higher rake, I dont think we really have much to go on for that. It happened in France, but Im not sure how similar their law is with the one being considered here. With that said, Im not sure what the current rake is there, but I do know that pokerstars lowered it in response to the demands of the players. Further, in the US there would be much more competition, so there will always be other options and if players stop playing at one site because of the rake, they will most likely respond.

Bottom line is that nobody really knows what exactly will happen, but those who are most informed seem to be optimistic and I agree. I expect regulated games will have a much larger, and fishier, player pool which will more than offset any potential extra rake

winner imo.

[kiwiMark]

ugh, don't you hate it when a post is totally tldr and then the next four posts are one liners being like "I totally agree with this guy"

[Micro2Macro]

Increased rake and several other potential issues will easily be an enormous problem if the bills are not drafted well, and that's something PPA has had some struggles with.

this

i don't see why you guys are all ignoring this? it's a pretty important point.

[a500lbgorilla]

this

i don't see why you guys are all ignoring this? it's a pretty important point.

My position is simple.

You are bad with thoughts.

Your thoughts.

Are abbreviated.

And they assume that you.

Are right.

And others are wrong.

Once you tell me what the hell "this" means to you instead of linking to a conversation
where
you
say
O
M
G
How obvious
Is
THIS
OMG
PPL R STUPID

TY
FOR AGREEING WITH ME!
OMG
PPL ARE SO STUPID RITE?

I will listen to you.

My support for the bill is simple. If I want my buddy to play online poker it means I have to explain, with difficulty, the legality of the game. I would much prefer every John, Jake and Sam know online poker is legal and awesome and be able to deposit with nothing but a *click* *click*.

I sent an email to the main sponsor of the bill (Mr. Frank) asking him to illuminate the specifics of personal poker player's profit taxes, I'm waiting patiently for his reply.

And to the specifics of: "this bill will increase rake" I don't understand exactly why that is, so I can't comment on it further. Please expand upon that.

[wufwugy]

this

i don't see why you guys are all ignoring this? it's a pretty important point.

Honestly, I think that when a bill finally passes into law, it will be pretty good, but the main reason for any goodness comes from PPA, 2p2, the sites, and possibly the BnM lobby pushing for those positive factors. There has been a ton of awful policy in proposed legislation, some have been beaten back, and our position should not be anti-law but pro-good law

Also, anybody who thinks we're not going to get a new online gambling law within a few years is living in a fantasy world. Lobbying is getting heavy and much of the establishment wants it anyways. It WILL happen, we just have to make sure it happens right.

[BooG690]

No guys. Rake went up in France.
</discussion>

[Micro2Macro]

well we should at least be somewhat concerned the us gov is getting involved here.

[Micro2Macro]

also rilla you are the biggest troll around here you don't even play poker anymore (?) why are you even posting in a thread related to poker?

[a500lbgorilla]

You are right.

I am so sorry.

[Micro2Macro]

but yeah.

me typing like this is pretty funny.

isn't it?

too difficult to resist trolling someones posts that stack sentences instead of just typing out one god damn paragraph.

[a500lbgorilla]

You're right. That is why I troll you.

I apologize for my ways.

[BennyLaRue]

No guys. Rake went up in France.
</discussion>

But it's France. They don't get capitalism.

[a500lbgorilla]

I wanted to understand further why rake was bound to go up, I was told pokerstars.fr was all I needed to know; Do the research.

Snarky-ness aside, who can do the research for me? I mean with me?

I'll hit the google, you consult 2+2

[BooG690]

I wanted to understand further why rake was bound to go up, I was told pokerstars.fr was all I needed to know; Do the research.

Snarky-ness aside, who can do the research for me? I mean with me?

I'll hit the google, you consult 2+2

Let me google that for you

[a500lbgorilla]

I said snarky-ness aside!

[kevster]

Anyone who becomes incredibly pissed at US law/taxation/rake but still desperately wants to play poker more than anything can move house, no?

[aka_red]

Anyone who becomes incredibly pissed at US law/taxation/rake but still desperately wants to play poker more than anything can move house, no?

yes, but it would be nice not to be forced into doing something.

[kevster]

yes, but it would be nice not to be forced into doing something.

Of course but, as others have alluded to ITT, nothing is ever permanent. When things change then you have to adapt accordingly and you always have options.

Nakamura and I used to play the DON SNGs pretty heavily because we had a significant edge. Over time they filled up with regs and became much less profitable. We could have stuck it out but chose to stop playing them and go and find something else with a better edge.

People need to see what happens with the proposed law changes and then make a choice as they would with any other poker decision.

[aka_red]

obviously. i was more referring to hoping that when legislation and taxes are implemented that it is not a mandatory move for poker players, such as a 50% gambling tax on top of income tax. you know something absurd like that. that would literally kill the profitability of playing online poker professionally in the united states.

[bigred]

bitch please