Middle Pairs... TUff Situation!

[FlowJoe]

Ok. Here's my favorite brain drain situation:
Middle pairs. I'll show through the flop as the pre call is easy!!
What do you think/do??:
FLOW
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop:

[ZwiFT]

bet? lol

[bjsaust]

Did you post the right HH?

[meeloche]

Pre Call? You raised... you flopped a set.... that means bet....

[AnTman_69]

In case u didnt notice..you flopped a set. So its not really a middle pair anymore, or a tough situation. Betting here is the best option. Build a big pot and stack these mofos.

[FlowJoe]

OK...Here's the turn
What say u now!!
I'm not showing the action on purpose.
FLOW


$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10, 3 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $2.50, piensate folds, Shearzy calls $2.50

Turn:

[griffey24]

Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!

[ATOTHEC101]

[Stacks]

[gametight]

[Genitruc]

flow i m not saying you re a bad person or a bad poker player or anything, but this is an epic fail and a huge waste of time.

[nutsinho]

here u go

[AFchung]

i grind for hours for moments like these

bet.

[Micro2Macro]

here u go

heh, did you move this from 'full ring'?

[bigspenda73]

did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related

[Stacks]

did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related

God I was hoping it was going to be this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgaOWRfcrMY

And yes.. I have the same look after watching this clip as I do after reading flowjoe's posts in this thread.

[Stacks]

Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!

Given villain could possibly have 79, J9 shouldn't we be c/folding this turn now?

Edit: and furthermore, since we figure villain is calling with those hands on the flop and we know that the turn is going to complete those hands, shouldn't we just be c/folding the flop?

Edit2: Please, no-one seriously take any of their time explaining this.

[Muzzard]

[Stacks]

fyq

[gingerwizard]

fyq

[bigspenda73]

this thread can now only be replied with youtube clips:

another contribution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hz2am90Hk

[RoyalProdigy]

WTF kinda thread is this

[FlowJoe]

Here's the rest of the hand!! Appreciate the attempts at humor, dulls the pain!!

And to those who asked, I deleted from full and put it in short, someone else moved it to beginner 25nl, which is where it should be!!

Yes BigS...I see what I get!! LOL
Peace,
FLOW

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10, 3 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $2.50, piensate folds, Shearzy calls $2.50

Turn: ($8.10, 2 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $6, Shearzy raises to $12, Hero raises to $22.17, Shearzy calls $9.85

River: ($52.12, 2 players)

Final Pot: $52.12
Shearzy shows:
Hero shows:

Shearzy wins $49.80 ( won +$24.45 )
Hero wins $0.32 ( lost -$25.35 )
piensate lost -$1

[d0zer]

Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!

BAM

[Stacks]

Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!

Given villain could possibly have 79, J9 shouldn't we be c/folding this turn now?

Edit: and furthermore, since we figure villain is calling with those hands on the flop and we know that the turn is going to complete those hands, shouldn't we just be c/folding the flop?

Edit2: Please, no-one seriously take any of their time explaining this.

Dozer... But... Refer to quote!

[Stacks]

Here's the rest of the hand!! Appreciate the attempts at humor, dulls the pain!!

teehee. And the even funnier part is, we aren't trying to be humorous. We are trying to tell you how retarded you are if you don't know how to play a set here. But hey... whatever dulls the pain, amirite?

[swiggidy]

Where you failed is spiking the on the river.

[xpaand]

did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I was reading the whole thread sequentially when I got to this. I think that's all I needed to know. LMAO.

[FlowJoe]

Where you failed is spiking the on the river.

ok ok!! That's funny!! Shoulda check/fold the turn.
Peace,
FLOW

[givememyleg]

Flow, you're going through what all beginner's go through. The reason there are so many sarcastic comments is because everyone else here already went through it as well and can look back at these moments and say basically -

Don't focus on big lay downs or fancy moves, just play abc poker. When you flop a set, bet bet bet. When you raise utg with 66, this is your absolute smack daddy premature ejaculation dream of a flop. The only thing on your mind should be getting all the chips in.

You played the hand fine.

[Stacks]

yeah fwiw, you played the hand really well. It's just your thought process that is truly whack here. Do you honestly think you need to c/f the turn? Like what would compel you to think that is the best play? And while we are at it, what compels you to question your flop bet?

Advice tip #1: Quit looking at the hand as a whole. Plan your hand, but look at the decision on each street, and each time you get to act as a seperate decision. Everytime it's your chance to act you have the ability to make a +ev, 0ev, or -ev play. Your plays here on all streets were +ev. You won money sir!

[FlowJoe]

Hey Give,
Haven't seen you for a while. I'm cool man. I appreciate the humor..yada yada... really. I do, post mortum wise feel checking the turn, and dealing with the river depending on his bet, would have been more prudent but hindsight...you know!! And I know I will pretty much push the set anyway!!
Thanks for the post,
FLOW
PS You know I have been known to get mine!! While I don't consider myself a beginner, I hope I always stay one!!

[Stacks]

I really hate to continue ragging you, but seriously you are most definitely a beginner. And have a ways to go before you are not considered a beginner. You are still being very much so results oriented. Hindsight doesn't mean shit in poker.

[FlowJoe]

XXSTACKSXX,
I don't question any move I made except reraising the turn. Hindsight is hand analysis which obviously you feel is useless?? I'm just relooking at my play. Whatever. And unfortunately I lost money SIR. BUT thanks for your thoughts. I'll se ya around.
Peace,
FLOW

[LawDude]

I agree with what everyone else said about this hand as a matter of ABC poker.

However, as you get better and incorporate more sophisticated reads into your game, you will get to a point where you may be able to discern-- with some players-- what is happening in the hand and how you can narrow their range.

And at that point, the issue of when to lay down a set against a straight can become a live issue.

Not for a beginner in no-limit though.

One other thing to think about-- how much you bet on the flop with this hand may depend in part on whether there is a potential straight or flush draw on the board (as well as your read as to how often your villains are playing with suited cards or connectors). Remember, you want to give your opponent an incorrect price to chase his straight. Even with your $2.50 flop bet, had he had an open ended straight draw, your Villain's implied odds on his woud have been pretty good here. (Of course, he was calling with a gutshot and hit. But you didn't know that.)

[Micro2Macro]

XXSTACKSXX,
I don't question any move I made except reraising the turn. Hindsight is hand analysis which obviously you feel is useless?? I'm just relooking at my play. Whatever. And unfortunately I lost money SIR. BUT thanks for your thoughts. I'll se ya around.
Peace,
FLOW

It is pretty much is useless. Poker is about making correct decisions based on imperfect information so we can't go back and replay a hand differently just because we lost. In fact, sometimes we can't do anything about losing a hand period. We made every decision we could correctly as possible, yet still lost (i.e. set/set vs an unknown is 100% unavoidable if you get it all in on the flop). I'm sure everyone here has fell victim to hindsight at one point or another, but as soon as you realize it's completely irrelevant to the decision you're facing your win rate will probably double.

[okiman]

The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight. Yes, you might be up against 79, QQ, 1010, 88 or J9. But you also might be up against Q10, AQ, AJ, KK, AA, any flush draw... You need to put your opponents on a range, determine your equity against that range, and see if you should continue. What you are doing here is seeing if your opponent might have you beat, possibly, in worst-case scenario. Your opponent will almost always have at least 1 hand that has you beat. You can't worry about that. Are you seriously only going to reraise on the turn/river with the nuts? You'd be losing a ton of value from your hands if you played that way. You'd also be far too easy to read and exploit as a player.

I'm just a fellow 25nl player without a ton of experience, but you've got some of the best and most respected players on ftr giving you advice. Listen to it.

[LawDude]

The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight. Yes, you might be up against 79, QQ, 1010, 88 or J9. But you also might be up against Q10, AQ, AJ, KK, AA, any flush draw... You need to put your opponents on a range, determine your equity against that range, and see if you should continue. What you are doing here is seeing if your opponent might have you beat, possibly, in worst-case scenario. Your opponent will almost always have at least 1 hand that has you beat. You can't worry about that. Are you seriously only going to reraise on the turn/river with the nuts? You'd be losing a ton of value from your hands if you played that way. You'd also be far too easy to read and exploit as a player.

I'm just a fellow 25nl player without a ton of experience, but you've got some of the best and most respected players on ftr giving you advice. Listen to it.

This is correct. You have to work on putting players on a range of plausible hands that they will play, and then make positive expected value plays based on the size of the pot and the likelihood of them having hands within that range that beat you.

Once you have a lot of experience in thinking about players' ranges, THEN you can start thinking about what your reads and the players' actions and tendencies tell you about the specific hands they might have. That's when you can start narrowing that range and figuring out situations where a player actually has you beat and you don't have good odds to draw out. You can't do B, though, until you are very experienced and learned at doing A.

[ArcadianRock]

Don't be so results oriented, if all poker players were like that we'd have quit long ago.

Jesus I get sucked out hundreds of times a week, why's this so different?

[Sir Pawnalot]

This thread pisses me off.

Op wrote: "What do you think/do??:"

FTR wrote:
-"lol"
-"Pre Call? You raised... you flopped a set.... that means bet...."
-"In case u didnt notice..you flopped a set."
-"I really hate to continue ragging you, but seriously you are most definitely a beginner. And have a ways to go before you are not considered a beginner."
- "The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight."


Thank God people like Micro and Lawdude is posting. Flowjoe is probably, like me, trying to become the best player there ever was. Your robotic answers will do nothing to improve his game. Just the fact he is reviewing this hand- and thinking about alternate ways of playing it shows that he has more potential than most players i see posting here.

Show respect xxx- just because you have played millions of hands with mediocre winrates does not mean you can berate people like this. Especially not Arcadianrock who just posted about not being able to win.

Thinking through situations where the action is obvious is one of the things that separates winners from future World Champions.

GL FlowJoe

[Genitruc]

getting smacked in the face about stuff that may not seem obvious to you is a crucial part of the learning process

[Genitruc]

oh shit I just realized this is the BC. For some reason I thought it was SHNL.

I srsly apologize. I would've never pulled the douchebagness had I realized I was posting in this forum.

Seriously. Don't sweat it Flow, glgl.

[Micro2Macro]

oh shit I just realized this is the BC. For some reason I thought it was SHNL.

I srsly apologize. I would've never pulled the douchebagness had I realized I was posting in this forum.

Seriously. Don't sweat it Flow, glgl.

Heh, I can't wait till I reach 50nl so I can be verbally assaulted

[Stacks]

Your robotic answers will do nothing to improve his game. Just the fact he is reviewing this hand- and thinking about alternate ways of playing it shows that he has more potential than most players i see posting here.

I fail to see where "robotic" answers were used in this thread. The fact that villain posted a pretty obvious hand is not the reason he was being "berated". The reason was because he seemed clueless to the situation, and was being very much so results oriented. I don't mind anyone posting any type of hand history for analysis. Thinking about poker, and reviewing your sessions are a must if you wish to improve.

I was not wrong in telling OP that he is very much a beginner. From his posts in this thread alone, I can easily infer that he does not know much about how things in poker works. He was being results oriented. He was not using a very accurate hand range (if one at all). He did not understand that on average he will win money in this spot against most villains, and that his decisions were +ev. I have no shame in telling his this, and he should have no shame in receiving and accepting the information.

Show respect xxx- just because you have played millions of hands with mediocre winrates does not mean you can berate people like this. Especially not Arcadianrock who just posted about not being able to win.

While I'm not certain if this is directed at me (because I'm not xxx anything), I will assume so and address it. First I haven't played millions of hands. My lifetime tracked hands does not exceed 400k hands.

I was probably a bit of an asshole in this thread. But you can only take so much of seeing the same threads over and over again. This was the standard "please to not be results oriented anymore" thread.

And please tell me when I berated Arcadianrock. I do not believe I have in any post or thread.

[Sir Pawnalot]

My point was that berating a beginner does nothing but anger the poster. It is not constructive for learning.

It is easy to explain how result orientation leads to bad play without putting people down.

People posting in the BC know they are not excellent players- it is no use concentrating our energies on telling everybody how much they suck.

Encouragement makes the OP build confidence, but honesty is just as important. It is possible to be honest- yet respectful.

The reason I mentioned your name xxstacksxx was not because your replies were robotic nor non-constructive- but because you are highly respected and when you put people down it can have serious effects.

I am sorry I got too carried away- it just reminded me of Sauce123 when he first started posting and people ganged up on him.

Sauce123 finally earned the respect he deserved and I hope that Flowjoe eventually gets his game to a new level where he too can earn some respect. You definitely have the support of the community.

GL

[sil693]

sand filled vag ITT

[bigspenda73]

sand filled vag ITT