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For me, callers are worse than raisers.

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  1. #1

    Default For me, callers are worse than raisers.

    I always get stuck on the turn in these spots. Advice please? Check or shove?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP3 ($8.14)
    Hero (CO) ($4.94)
    Button ($10.01)
    SB ($5)
    BB ($6.35)
    UTG ($15.27)
    UTG+1 ($5.38)
    MP1 ($3.41)
    MP2 ($6.89)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with 10, 10
    2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.15, MP2 calls $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

    Flop: ($0.67) 5, K, 9 (4 players)
    MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.05, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.35, 1 fold

    Turn: ($1.42) 7 (2 players)
    MP1 checks, Hero checks

    River: ($1.42) J (2 players)
    MP1 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

    Total pot: $1.62 | Rake: $0.05

    2) Throwing in another hand here. I think calling here is just gambling.. What do you think??

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    SB ($10.89)
    Hero (BB) ($4.34)
    UTG ($9.93)
    UTG+1 ($5)
    MP1 ($4.80)
    MP2 ($16.04)
    MP3 ($5.31)
    CO ($1.96)
    Button ($6.74)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
    2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.20, 2 folds, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, MP1 raises to $4.80 (All-In), 2 folds

    Total pot: $1.42 | Rake: $0
  2. #2
    You should provide us with any reads you had for each hand you post, such as your own table image and opponent stats or tendencies for example. It's pretty hard to give advice otherwise since each hand is very situational to the players and table history.

    Hand1- I usually play 6max but depending on what you know of the table and the players already in the pot you might want to 3BET here as a squeeze play and then take it from there if you are called or 4BET.
    Since you just called you're pretty much playing for set value and your raise on the flop is questionable in a 4-way pot. I would definitely try it in a heads up pot against the very weak minbet, but here I'm either just calling or folding. As played the turn and river are fine.

    Hand2- Raise bigger preflop, to at least $1. You're out of position and there are already 2 players in the pot. After that if your opponent shoves your decision is dependent on your reads and what you know about this opponent. Folding is fine.
  3. #3
    H1- MP1 kinda smells like QQ/JJ/ Adxd. After you raised the flop I'd be fine getting to showdown cheaply.

    H2- It's gross, but without a remotely good read I fold here. I would also 3bet more preflop with your squeezing action. When he shoves it's AK, KK+ way more than the AQ/JJ that you would like to see.
    Ich grolle nicht...
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Illfavor
    H1- MP1 kinda smells like QQ/JJ/ Adxd. After you raised the flop I'd be fine getting to showdown cheaply.

    H2- It's gross, but without a remotely good read I fold here. I would also 3bet more preflop with your squeezing action. When he shoves it's AK, KK+ way more than the AQ/JJ that you would like to see.
    No reads on hand 2. Hard to get reads on these players because they don't last at the tables more than 20 mins. I probably shoulda reraised more than 4x but still, his shove was 6x higher.. i've seen shoves at 5NL PF and they turn up Ace rag o or KJo etc. But still, I felt like it was alot to commit with QQ and no read.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolver123
    No reads on hand 2. Hard to get reads on these players because they don't last at the tables more than 20 mins. I probably shoulda reraised more than 4x but still, his shove was 6x higher.. i've seen shoves at 5NL PF and they turn up Ace rag o or KJo etc. But still, I felt like it was alot to commit with QQ and no read.
    It's not really the amount to commit that's the problem, moreso the range of hands we must profitably assign to a player we have no reads on who's willing to commit ~100BBs without seeing any more cards. This situation is pretty easy readless (for me). KK+ I snap call, and I fold all other hands.
    Ich grolle nicht...
  6. #6
    Hand 1 - what are you trying to accomplish when raising the flop?

    Hand 2 - without reads, i fold here. his 4bet shoving range is KK+ and AK. here is your equity against that range

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 114030168 626394.00 { QQ }
    Hand 1: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 172384116 626394.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
  7. #7
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    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    Revolver123, I realize you couldn't give a flying fuck about my advice, so you may skip the following bit of analysis if you feel like it. I'm still going to post it because even if it isn't helpful to you, it may be helpful to someone else, or if it's wrong it may prove helpful to me (because I realize I suck, and "I" can admit that).

    Hand 1 - Preflop is standard. I believe someone in this thread with a 6max background put forth that squeezing might be the correct move. I'm not sure about at 6m, but at FR that usually isn't the best choice here.

    On the flop, raising is the worse decision you can make here. Your in a multiway pot with a very marginal hand. There aren't going to be many worse hands that call a raise (flush draw is about it. Maybe 9x a small % of the time). You could fold out JJ/QQ, but this is only a small portion of their range and it really doesn't make much sense to me to turn your pair of TT into a bluff here.

    On the flop, I'd likely call the minbet (as you have odds to call looking for your set on the turn). Your obviously trying to showdown as cheap as possible.

    Hand 2 - First off I would squeeze it larger preflop to around $0.80 or so. But as played, we have ~40% equity against a range of soley KK+, AK (as indicated by AFchung's stove analysis).

    Well... At the beginning of the hand the effective stack is $4.34 (our stack because it's the smallest of the two important stacks). After villains shove there is (if I didn't mess up) $5.14 in the pot [.20 open + .20 call + .60 raise + .40 call + 3.74 more on the shove]. We must call off our remaining $3.74 into a pot of what will be $8.88, therefore we need 3.74 / (5.14 + 3.74) or 42% equity to have a break-even call.

    Since we need 42% equity and only have around 40%, it seems like it would be a fold as played. However, a few things to note. If we had squeezed to a more correct size ($0.80-$0.90), then we would need less equity to make the call and would have had the needed equity. Also, I would expect to see a hand like AK here more often than AA/KK, as most individuals don't just 4bet shove AA/KK. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see villain turn over something like TT, JJ, or some smaller and weaker pairs or even AQ some % of the time.

    I likely make a call in hand 2.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    Revolver123, I realize you couldn't give a flying fuck about my advice, so you may skip the following bit of analysis if you feel like it. I'm still going to post it because even if it isn't helpful to you, it may be helpful to someone else, or if it's wrong it may prove helpful to me (because I realize I suck, and "I" can admit that).

    Hand 1 - Preflop is standard. I believe someone in this thread with a 6max background put forth that squeezing might be the correct move. I'm not sure about at 6m, but at FR that usually isn't the best choice here.

    On the flop, raising is the worse decision you can make here. Your in a multiway pot with a very marginal hand. There aren't going to be many worse hands that call a raise (flush draw is about it. Maybe 9x a small % of the time). You could fold out JJ/QQ, but this is only a small portion of their range and it really doesn't make much sense to me to turn your pair of TT into a bluff here.

    On the flop, I'd likely call the minbet (as you have odds to call looking for your set on the turn). Your obviously trying to showdown as cheap as possible.

    Hand 2 - First off I would squeeze it larger preflop to around $0.80 or so. But as played, we have ~40% equity against a range of soley KK+, AK (as indicated by AFchung's stove analysis).

    Well... At the beginning of the hand the effective stack is $4.34 (our stack because it's the smallest of the two important stacks). After villains shove there is (if I didn't mess up) $5.14 in the pot [.20 open + .20 call + .60 raise + .40 call + 3.74 more on the shove]. We must call off our remaining $3.74 into a pot of what will be $8.88, therefore we need 3.74 / (5.14 + 3.74) or 42% equity to have a break-even call.

    Since we need 42% equity and only have around 40%, it seems like it would be a fold as played. However, a few things to note. If we had squeezed to a more correct size ($0.80-$0.90), then we would need less equity to make the call and would have had the needed equity. Also, I would expect to see a hand like AK here more often than AA/KK, as most individuals don't just 4bet shove AA/KK. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see villain turn over something like TT, JJ, or some smaller and weaker pairs or even AQ some % of the time.

    I likely make a call in hand 2.
    Well said, I agree with everything esp. in hand 1.
    Hand 2 I would call. Its close equity wise as Staxx said, but I also don't think you should get in the habit of be 3betting (or squeezing) this hand if you don't intend to call it off.
    "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
  9. #9
    What exactly is incorrect with 3bet folding QQ pre w/o a read? Equity wise its really close, but my HH reviews in these situations always say "this was a fold" at the end. I feel like a 4bet pre range at these stakes is severely dominated by AA/KK. In my last 30K hands I have stacked off wQQ against full stacked vills 12 times and ran into AA/KK 10 times. I keep putting AK solidly in their range and apparently am only meeting the top of their range -.-...
    Ich grolle nicht...
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Illfavor
    What exactly is incorrect with 3bet folding QQ pre w/o a read? Equity wise its really close, but my HH reviews in these situations always say "this was a fold" at the end. I feel like a 4bet pre range at these stakes is severely dominated by AA/KK. In my last 30K hands I have stacked off wQQ against full stacked vills 12 times and ran into AA/KK 10 times. I keep putting AK solidly in their range and apparently am only meeting the top of their range -.-...
    i'm going to have to agree here. i don't remember the last time i stacked off with QQ and wasn't 80-20. at these stakes people like to flat and see flops with AK
  11. #11
    Hmmm, I guess there's nothing wrong with it? But for me it seems if you are only stacking off when you 3 bet and are 4 bet if you have AA or KK you are lending yourself to be pretty easy to play.
    You are right, though I haven't played these stakes in a while but its not like I'm at the nosebleeds.
    Did a quick filter through HEM for the past year (over 600k hands at $50NL and $100NL) just for hands that I stacked off pre flop w/QQ and it was profitable for me at 190bb/100.
    Now its true I didn't filter for times I 3 bet and was 4 bet or squeezed and was 4bet by a player without a read, etc. And also of course I don't always get it in w/QQ when I'm 4-bet. But I think many people look at a squeeze as a lighter 3-bet than normal, especially from the button, and might not like being bluffed off their decent hand. He could also be trying to isolate against the 40bber in the cutoff.

    Edit: Ok I also ran a filter because I was curious where, I had QQ, 3-bet=true, was 4-bet=true, all in preflop= true.
    Results, out of 600k+ hands it happened 27 times and I won 699bb/100 hands. Out of the 27 times, I lost to AA or KK 7 times. They of course could have had AA or KK and I sucked out, but thats the net of it.

    So what I'm saying is if you are playing at a stake regularly you shouldn't be so quick to fold if you are 4-bet, this goes for AK too. Maybe I just run good....ya right.
    "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Illfavor
    What exactly is incorrect with 3bet folding QQ pre w/o a read? Equity wise its really close, but my HH reviews in these situations always say "this was a fold" at the end. I feel like a 4bet pre range at these stakes is severely dominated by AA/KK. In my last 30K hands I have stacked off wQQ against full stacked vills 12 times and ran into AA/KK 10 times. I keep putting AK solidly in their range and apparently am only meeting the top of their range -.-...
    Do you always 3-bet QQ? Maybe I just put myself in fewer situations where I need to stack off preflop with QQ but over this smaller sample you get it in preflop like twice as often as I do w/QQ.
    "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by allabout
    Quote Originally Posted by Illfavor
    What exactly is incorrect with 3bet folding QQ pre w/o a read? Equity wise its really close, but my HH reviews in these situations always say "this was a fold" at the end. I feel like a 4bet pre range at these stakes is severely dominated by AA/KK. In my last 30K hands I have stacked off wQQ against full stacked vills 12 times and ran into AA/KK 10 times. I keep putting AK solidly in their range and apparently am only meeting the top of their range -.-...
    Do you always 3-bet QQ? Maybe I just put myself in fewer situations where I need to stack off preflop with QQ but over this smaller sample you get it in preflop like twice as often as I do w/QQ.
    Maybe players are 4betting wider at 50NL, I play at 10NL. Here, a 4bet almost always means "I can have rokets!" unless they are the super laggy/maniac type.
    Ich grolle nicht...
  14. #14
    Knowing your villain and reads is so important and will completely change the way you play those hands. Generally speaking for hand #1, I don't have a problem with how it played out. I might have just called the turn to keep villain guessing and to keep the pot smaller, but raising like you did is good, too because you have fold equity and get a better idea where you stand. The turn check, check is fine and you can't fold the river - the only question is if you should raise on the river and if you don't really have a good idea of what he has, I think calling is better than raising. The pot is plenty big enough and at that point this is the classic medium strength hand that has no value betting power or bluffing power.

    Hand #2, with no reads I fold. People @ these stakes love to shove with Aces, Kings, and AK - sure, you could push a small edge if it was AK, but you're taking the worst of it if against a higher pocket pair. If you have a villain who has been playing more than 40% of hands and has shown down pushing with small pocket pair, suited connectors, or other rags, then obviously you call. I would have probably just called the bet and saw a flop, the big re-raise can encourage a shove, which is fine if you have a read and either want or are at least prepared to call it, but in this case, it seems like you weren't.
    - Jason

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