Probably correct fold, but wtf happened here

[AFchung]

I have absolutely no idea what happened here. I'm just 99% certain I'm beat by something

24/0 over 25 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($12.95)
BB ($15.50)
UTG ($1.85)
UTG+1 ($2.35)
MP1 ($8.45)
MP2 ($28.35)
Hero (MP3) ($11)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($4)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, A
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 5, 8, K (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, CO calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls $2

River: ($6.35) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.85 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $6.35 | Rake: $0.30

[Sasquach991]

Why only $0.70 on the flop?

[Illfavor]

I didn't mind the flop bet that much. What range did you put him on pflop, flop, and turn?

[bigspenda73]

Why only $0.70 on the flop?

This thought is incorrect, any guesses why?

[kb coolman]

Because $0.70 is a great cbet size for TPTK on a spread rainbow flop.

[mieczkowusc]

Why only $0.70 on the flop?

This thought is incorrect, any guesses why?

Because the board is very dry, i.e. no suitedness and the only real straight draw is if the villain has exactly 67.

You are likely either way ahead, or way behind. Betting smaller might encourage worser pairs and Kings to call rather than a large bet. Also, if your cbets are usually the same size, the villain might just think you have a missed hand.

This is a fold in my book unless there is some substantial read otherwise.

[bigspenda73]

some good thinking there

[kb coolman]

I can't find a single thing about the villans line here that makes me feel I'm way ahead. Surely he didn't call 4xbb pf with 67, but it's possible. This feels more like a set.

I may be a little nitty, but I get warning bells going off anytime I've got an AI decision with TP.

[hangchiong]

the pot is at 0.95 on the flop,would betting around 50-60 cents correct then,in order to get weaker kings to call or some weird sc.

do we still bet the turn here?im making some adjustments to my turn play this past week.reading here and there(following spenda and spooitnow concept on BC thread)that BC posters play the turn and river badly.

i believe c/c the turn wont be as bad as well.

fold for me.

[RoyalProdigy]

70 cents is a perfect flop bet. Theres no real worries with a dry flop like that. I like the turn bet. I don't like the river check. I would have bet something and let me tell you why, i never check UTG after i get a peice of flop because i want the control. period. You are gonna have to raise me off my hand because i don't enter many pots but when i do i play like a hornet backed into a corner. I sting the F*ck out of anything. Yeah if you bet half the pot on the river you could just be throwing it away if he reraises you all in. But if you check and he does what he did he could have K-Q and playing the board sensing your afraid and he knows hes gonna snatch the pot with a strong bet. A 2 dollar bet on the river says one of two things, 1. I want you to call because i have it and i'm trying to bleed you dry or 2. I have a real good hand and your not gonna scare me away so easy. So unless he has that straight hes not going all in. Now if he calls and you loose then so be it but your not left in the dark wondering sht what did he have. As soon as you check your waving the white flag saying "stick it to me please". I mean what you did is not really wrong but its just not how i would have handled the river. I always bet to see where i'm at in the hand.

[bigspenda73]

the pot is at 0.95 on the flop,would betting around 50-60 cents correct then,in order to get weaker kings to call or some weird sc.

do we still bet the turn here?im making some adjustments to my turn play this past week.reading here and there(following spenda and spooitnow concept on BC thread)that BC posters play the turn and river badly.

i believe c/c the turn wont be as bad as well.

fold for me.

if we make a flop bet designed for him to take a wider range to the turn do you think betting again would be good or bad?

[RoyalProdigy]

Bad

The flop bet was good if we make a bet designed for villian to come along with a wider variety of hands (gutshot draws, backdoor flushes) Then the turn is going to increase his odds of winning the hand. So then if we bet the turn after that 2nd diamond falls and completes a straight possability we are even more unsure about our hand and what he has because we let him come along to cheap.

Thats what i think anyway.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Royal you should bet the turn more often if villain is peeling a wider range on the flop because of the betsize we choose. Do you see why?

[RoyalProdigy]

Royal you should bet the turn more often if villain is peeling a wider range on the flop because of the betsize we choose. Do you see why?

Please explain why.....I never said i wouldnt bet the turn but please explain yourself.

[AFchung]

70 cents is a perfect flop bet. Theres no real worries with a dry flop like that. I like the turn bet. I don't like the river check.

any bet on the river commits us to a call... the pot is already 6+

[RoyalProdigy]

70 cents is a perfect flop bet. Theres no real worries with a dry flop like that. I like the turn bet. I don't like the river check.

any bet on the river commits us to a call... the pot is already 6+

Well if you feel commited then don't bet the river and get bluffed out of every pot that you don't have the nuts on the river because your not commited to call. I see your point but do you see mine? If you check its a open invitation to steal from you or atleast attempt to.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Royal you should bet the turn more often if villain is peeling a wider range on the flop because of the betsize we choose. Do you see why?

Please explain why.....I never said i wouldnt bet the turn but please explain yourself.

If he is peeling the flop with a wider range then we have a more profitable bluff/value bet on the turn. If he is peeling with a narrow range he is less likely to call with a hand we beat so checking becomes better.

[RoyalProdigy]

I'm sorry AFchung i meant to say "well if your going to feel commited by making a bet on the river then check and get bluffed out of every pot that you don't have the nuts on the river because your not commited to call.

[RoyalProdigy]

Royal you should bet the turn more often if villain is peeling a wider range on the flop because of the betsize we choose. Do you see why?

Please explain why.....I never said i wouldnt bet the turn but please explain yourself.

If he is peeling the flop with a wider range then we have a more profitable bluff/value bet on the turn. If he is peeling with a narrow range he is less likely to call with a hand we beat so checking becomes better.

Thank you for explaining yourself. If villian is peeling a wider range on the flop and hits his miracle on the turn i'm not going to know it for sure. I'm going c-bet the turn with TP TK regardless if i bet 3/4ths the pot on the flop or 1/2 the pot on the flop. The difference is i'm making it harder for him to suckout on me after the flop because i'm raising more. If hes the type of station to call no matter what i would do what was said above (1/2 the pot) because i know hes coming along no matter what and i don't want to commit myself to hand i may have to dump on the turn if i believe he hit his hand. But regardless i'm betting the turn.....but i don't know how much. lol

[Erpel]

It's one of those situations where you could say that if you play TPTK OOP you do it for 3 bets after the flop and if you play it IP you can pot control down to 2 bets after the flop - illustrating the power of position.

If the opponent is weak and honest (with stats of 25/0 all to go on it's not the most unreasonable of assumptions) I could be tempted to try a weak pot control line OOP - adjust flop bet size to $0.60 (turn pot of $2.15) and turn bet size to $1 (river pot of $4.15 with $6.95 behind) and then bet/fold small like $1-2. The problem with that line is that it screams for a bluff raise on every street. I would only run that line against very passive opponents.

Additional note on planning hand and SPR. Flop SPR is almost exactly 9 - almost always too high to commit with TPTK but if this opponent is a calling station this may be a situation where commitment should not be ruled out.

The other side of the coin is - what is my range for seeing this flop? AK is at the top of my range, and how I play AK is going to protect the weaker parts of my range like weaker kings, a lower pocket pair or other one pair hand or the straight draw. Is there a single bet size that is most profitable for my entire range, or should I have different bet sizes depending on which part of my range I'm holding? Which part of my range should be checking the flop?

[AFchung]

I'm sorry AFchung i meant to say "well if your going to feel commited by making a bet on the river then check and get bluffed out of every pot that you don't have the nuts on the river because your not commited to call.

yes, because a 24/0 who has shown little aggression is going to float two streets and bluff shove the river when checked to...

[grindinginnj]

I check the turn and see what happens, trying to make it 1 more bet to go on river. I am just learnig but that is what I would do. By betting the turn arent you almost commited to the hand anyway?

[Monty3038]

I have absolutely no idea what happened here. I'm just 99% certain I'm beat by something

24/0 over 25 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($12.95)
BB ($15.50)
UTG ($1.85)
UTG+1 ($2.35)
MP1 ($8.45)
MP2 ($28.35)
Hero (MP3) ($11)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($4)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, A
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds


Flop: ($0.95) 5, 8, K (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, CO calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls $2

River: ($6.35) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.85 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $6.35 | Rake: $0.30

Ok... wait.

I got about 1/2 way through the responses and got lost... here are my thoughts and I'd like to hear why I'm so far out of where you guys are on yours...


OK, so you raised from MP, got called by what over 25 hands appears to be a calling station... you then c-bet around 3/4 pot and get called... with TPTK... ok, so no problem there so far... board isn't that scary...

Next the turn, which is crap EXCEPT it now gives you a flush draw to diamonds, right? So your outs went up... doesn't hurt you...

His range pre flop is probably pretty wide... sticking to the 24% your're pretty ahead... then on the turn, another card that likely doesn't help him, unless he is diamond suited... IMO... you're ahead... I haven't done the Pokerstove (am at work) but will try to do it tonight...

River missed you both... you check, looking like a busted flush draw... he shoves figuring you missed... and you folded....

Am I way off here? Just thinking about what he calls with, then calls it down with, without more specifics on him, aren't we ahead on this a fair amount of the time, sure there are some sets in his range... but well... I'm going to have to pokerstove this.

[Monty3038]

Why only $0.70 on the flop?

This thought is incorrect, any guesses why?

I would like a shot at this one Spenda, see my other post too if you get a chance...

Here is my thought though since I c-bet TOO much... if I c-bet this I'm doing it for one of two reasons... one because I think I'm behind and want a better hand to fold... which I don't think is the case here... and two, to build a pot. Building a pot here is only going to get called by some pretty good hands... usually, but see my line in the other post... I think that with a 24/0 stat on 25 hands, you may not have enough to definatively go on, but isn't that person a bit of a station so far? Guess I need more info on their actions...

[grindinginnj]

I think you should have pushed..ALL IN!!!!

[RoyalProdigy]

I'm sorry AFchung i meant to say "well if your going to feel commited by making a bet on the river then check and get bluffed out of every pot that you don't have the nuts on the river because your not commited to call.

yes, because a 24/0 who has shown little aggression is going to float two streets and bluff shove the river when checked to...

He just might semi-bluff shove because you waved the white flag. I don't believe this to be the case in this situation. I just don't agree with betting nothing on the river, if betting on the river makes you feel commited then so be it but by not betting you look really weak. That is all i'm saying. You gave up on the hand completely and maybe it was the right thing but maybe it wasnt. I'm just trying to say there are ways to finding out if you are beat or not and checking is not the only way and the best way all the time. I'm just trying to help you look at it from the other guys perspective. I call your raise we see a flop. You C-bet on a dry flop. i call. you bet the turn. i call. you check the river. Why? because your weak end of story. I probably wouldnt have to go all in to get you off your hand but he did. A 3 dollar bet and you would of folded because it would have commited you. I know you wouldnt check the straight because you would want value on it and you risk only winning the pot if you check. So all the information that i'm getting is adding up to one thing.
Now if you bet the river it looks like your commiting yourself because of your stack on the table but by applying that pressure hes thinking he wouldnt bet here unless he had it because hes commiting himself. Your making it look like you a want call. I'm never really committed to a pot that i know i'm beat in, no matter how much money i got in there. So after the flop and turn you have a 7 dollar stack still or around there. a 3 dollar bet represents a hand you want called and your still in control if he goes all in then hes got the straight and you know it. A. you can just check pray that he checks even though you showed that your week or B. get pushed out of the pot or C. Do what i said above. This is a tough hand without a doubt. I just hate hitting the surrender/check button if i don't have to. I'd rather loose a hand being the agressor than lose it any other way.

[bigspenda73]

I think you should have pushed..ALL IN!!!!

hi, your WPP (words per post, found under your post count) is way too low for someone that nobody knows. If you would like to voice your opinion that is fine but if you keep constantly replying with 5 word answers we are going to have a problem.

[will641]

probably a good fold. if i were to get it in here i would rather do the shoving because his calling range is wider than his shoving range. however i think c/f is probably the best move here.

[AFchung]

This is a tough hand without a doubt. I just hate hitting the surrender/check button if i don't have to.

surrender/check button? i was willing to call a bet, but when was the last time you saw a passive player shove all in on the river without close to the nuts?

[RoyalProdigy]

This is a tough hand without a doubt. I just hate hitting the surrender/check button if i don't have to.

surrender/check button? i was willing to call a bet, but when was the last time you saw a passive player shove all in on the river without close to the nuts?

Well you did do the right thing by folding but as i said above i wouldnt have checked. Thats just me though. The check button can be and is viewable as a white flag. Thats all i'm saying. Do i think your play was terrable or even bad against a passive player? HELL NO!!! I was just voiceing a way for you to be faced with a AI with MORE information than you already had. With the information you did have after your check it was the right move to fold, but with the bet move i was talking about i think you would have had even more information and if not information you might have even taken down the pot (maybe). If not in this hand than the next one your faced with like this maybe not against such a passive player you might feel more comfortable with a bet on the river in this situation, But i like to put passive players to the test because they only call with monsters or shove all in which he did do on the river this time probably because you did check, but who knows maybe he was gonna shove anyway. I dont know. Good luck to at the tables and its been good.