200NL - A few situations to look at.

[Stacks]

Hand 1

Villain here is a laggier reg. He runs something like 18/16/4, and is cbetting 85% of flops, and 2barreling 21% of turns, over a large sample.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG TomasQ ($401.40)
UTG+1 HeliKa0N ($205.60)
MP1 lydia12345 ($217.50)
MP2 Raw Skillz07 ($307.40)
MP3 Hero ($200.00)
CO fripotin ($291.45)
BTN ex-superhero ($209.35)
SB Ajven ($201.00)
BB Miiiiga$ ($200.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 9 players) Hero is MP3
1 fold, HeliKa0N raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $8, 4 folds

Flop: ($19, 2 players)
HeliKa0N bets $12, Hero calls $12

I felt that making some sort of play against this villain would be profitable fairly often given his cbetting stats. So I decided to float; however, I'm wondering if bluff raising would be more correct. My only problem with bluff raising is "I" wouldn't be taking that line with any of my nut hands. So I figured I should be floating more often in this spot to balance my range. Is this the right line of thinking?

Turn: ($43, 2 players)
HeliKa0N checks, Hero bets $26, HeliKa0N calls $26

River: ($95, 2 players)
HeliKa0N checks, Hero bets $56, HeliKa0N folds

Tbh, I'm not sure if a bet here is going to be profitable? I believe he folds any Tx hands he peels the turn with, but am unsure about the rest of his range.

Final Pot: $95

Hero wins $148 ( won +$46 )
HeliKa0N lost -$46




Hand 2

Villain is a 13/8/4 reg. This hand is nothing big, but I'm wondering if I really should be betting this flop or not, and what I hope to accomplish if I am betting. Would I be doing it to get value from flush draws, weaker pairs, etc? Or as somewhat of a bluff/protection? This obv isn't a big pot or anything, but I occasionally run into spots where I'm unsure if i should be betting my hand with marginal SD value or not, and would like to see if I'm correct in some of those spots.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ATTICA 69 ($324.80)
UTG+1 heard em say ($337.10)
MP MaKiaVeli ($200.00)
CO ESTPatrick ($240.00)
BTN Hero ($206.00)
SB Samantha75 ($40.00)
BB huracanech ($14.25)

Pre-flop: ($3, 7 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, ESTPatrick raises to $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($15, 2 players)
ESTPatrick checks, Hero bets $10, ESTPatrick folds

Final Pot: $15

Hero wins $24.25 ( won +$8.25 )
ESTPatrick lost -$6

[Parasurama]

Hand 1: I like as played and I love the river bet, but what do you do if he double barrels? Do you raise the turn? What kind of hands do you normally take a flat flop, raise turn line with?

Hand 2: This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately, thanks for posting an example. I used to think that it was such an obvious/easy spot to bluff that villain would pay me off with worse a lot so I would just bet. Now I've been thinking that we should bet a more polarized range here and check through our hands that have medium-strength showdown value. As I'm writing this I'm thinking that it comes down to game flow and opponent tendencies. Looking at the texture of this board I find it odd that a 13/8/4 reg would c/f as the PFR. Maybe he just decided he didn't want to get involved with you.

[badgers]

Hand one I like. I don't see why you think floating is potentially bad given his v wide range and you have a lot of equity vs. his range. I don't know why you would raise this board, instead of repping a wide range of good/medium/nut hands you would barely rep 9 combos , although he's still in a shitty spot without history.

Hand 2 I would bet also because he should know I'm betting loads of my range as a bluff once he checks and also I wouldn't expect a check fold all that much on this board. I don't think it's much easier to get value on later streets with a check and there are a few nasty cards. Also I never expect him to c/r bluff.

[v diddy]

I've had a lot of the Hand 2 situations lately and I don't think I've played them all that well as a whole. More than once i paid off a K on the river after they call my flop bet and we both check the turn (hole in my game I guess).

What do you do if he calls? Check the turn and hope?

[Miffed22001]

1. Im not happy calling preflop because an 18/16 is going to fold more often surely than a 12/10?
Also, i like all the thinking in the hand but id argue that you cant bet the river because if opp c/c's turn hes calling river bet. You cant persuade him well that you have his pair beaten (and hes likely to pay a set in this type of hand IMO)

2. This is a really good hand to analyse IMO. I think you have to balance c-betting and turn c-betting nicely here so that you get almost 100% folds from anything but Kx no matter what your range.
I also think that if you check the flop, bet a blank turn and the river blanks you can make a fair sized bet on river and get called by a lot of mid pairs (99/TT) are great for value versus those who like to call too much with 77/88 here.

[Stacks]

Hand 1
Parasurama:Tbh, I would be rather stumped if villain was to double barrel this turn. I would likely only be doing this for value with 22,44,TT,JJ,TJ. So I suppose that if I choose to bluff raise the turn that with this hand, and this particular turn card this is one of the better spots to do it, as I now likely have 7-10 outs against villain.

Badgers: I don't think floating is a bad idea against this villain. This particular hand fits perfectly into the range that I want to play back against villain with given that I have good equity against against his range as you stated. However, my only concern was whether I wanted to be floating or bluff raising. And the reason I question this is both in part to conversations with some 100nl/200nl regs, and observations/thoughts that I have come across.

I personally wouldn't be raising this flop very often, if at all. I'm calling all my sets, JJ, QQ, mid pairs, Tx, etc. Therefore, if I were to bluff raise I feel I would be making my range rather transparent and nearly always a bluff in this spot. However, as you said raising this flop WILL put him into a shitty spot without history, as he is betting such a wide range, and he won't be continuing with much.

Basically, the question revolves around should I play my particular hand in a manner that will maximize it's EV, or play that hand in such a manner that I balance my range, and therefore maximize my ranges EV? I don't doubt bluff raising the flop will be profitable (even though he should call light for reasons stated above). But it polarizes my range, and I think that's bad?

Miffed: You say your unhappy calling preflop, does that mean you are wanting to 3b villain in this spot? If so, while I don't hate 3betting as we are likely to take the pot down preflop often, I feel AQs has alot of value calling IP against most villains, and especially agains this villain given his postflop tendancies, which will leave me with alot of opportunities to take the pot away postflop (floating, bluff raising, etc.).


Hand 2

Now I've been thinking that we should bet a more polarized range here and check through our hands that have medium-strength showdown value.

This is mainly the reason I am betting here. I feel that I am going to be betting this flop so often when checked to {88, 33, KQ, AK, KJ, air, flush draw} that if I am not betting hands like TT, JJ, etc that I am really unbalancing my range for checking through the flop and getting to the turn and river. And the range that I check through will be relatively weak, and will allow villain to play well against us if he applies significant aggression on the turn and river, as I don't think we can call both streets. The only way I see to combat unbalancing our ranges would be to either (A) bet our marginal hands on the flop or (B) check behind some of our nut hands. Not sure which, if either, is the way to go.

What's our play with a hand with a little less SD value here? 77? 98? 87? We should be more likely to bet those hands yes, as we are more likely to lose at SD?

[Stacks]

Hand 3

Villain is a 13/11/5 reg that cbets 70% of flops and 2 barrels 20% of turns. He has a turn AF of 1.3, with a river AF of 2.5.


I think this hand goes relatively well with hand number 2, as it still ponders on the premise of when and if we should be betting our hand with marginal SD value. Preflop and flop are relatively standard. The turn is where obvious questions arise to me. Should we be betting our marginal hands on this turn? I feel we will be betting floats, nut hands, on this turn, and that if we check through we are setting ourselves up for a relatively shitty river spot. A spot where we turn our cards fairly face up, and villain can play relatively well against us.

I am usually clueless on this river. I'm also usually calling, but it just seems like this line from villain is generally some sort of thin value that I can't beat, and very rarely a bluff.

Thoughts?

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG lydia12345 ($203.00)
UTG+1 RSSmoot ($304.20)
MP1 slickster998 ($209.10)
MP2 Artielpc ($203.00)
CO Hero ($242.65)
BTN wormnorton ($531.95)
SB mjrnt ($415.40)
BB acegee$$ ($210.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 8 players) Hero is CO
3 folds, Artielpc raises to $6, Hero calls $6, 3 folds

Flop: ($15, 2 players)
Artielpc bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($35, 2 players)
Artielpc checks, Hero checks

River: ($35, 2 players)
Artielpc bets $22, Hero folds

Final Pot: $35

Artielpc wins $55.30 ( won +$17.30 )
Hero lost -$16

[badgers]

god this is kinda gross your hand is so face up on the river on that board and yet folding seems like the grossest thing ever I think it depends almost entirely on history, also this is a spot where i think a check is more appropriate because he can definately c/c better a lot and is check folding all worse.

[Miffed22001]

Hand 1
Parasurama:Tbh, I would be rather stumped if villain was to double barrel this turn. I would likely only be doing this for value with 22,44,TT,JJ,TJ. So I suppose that if I choose to bluff raise the turn that with this hand, and this particular turn card this is one of the better spots to do it, as I now likely have 7-10 outs against villain.

Badgers: I don't think floating is a bad idea against this villain. This particular hand fits perfectly into the range that I want to play back against villain with given that I have good equity against against his range as you stated. However, my only concern was whether I wanted to be floating or bluff raising. And the reason I question this is both in part to conversations with some 100nl/200nl regs, and observations/thoughts that I have come across.

I personally wouldn't be raising this flop very often, if at all. I'm calling all my sets, JJ, QQ, mid pairs, Tx, etc. Therefore, if I were to bluff raise I feel I would be making my range rather transparent and nearly always a bluff in this spot. However, as you said raising this flop WILL put him into a shitty spot without history, as he is betting such a wide range, and he won't be continuing with much.

Basically, the question revolves around should I play my particular hand in a manner that will maximize it's EV, or play that hand in such a manner that I balance my range, and therefore maximize my ranges EV? I don't doubt bluff raising the flop will be profitable (even though he should call light for reasons stated above). But it polarizes my range, and I think that's bad?

Miffed: You say your unhappy calling preflop, does that mean you are wanting to 3b villain in this spot? If so, while I don't hate 3betting as we are likely to take the pot down preflop often, I feel AQs has alot of value calling IP against most villains, and especially agains this villain given his postflop tendancies, which will leave me with alot of opportunities to take the pot away postflop (floating, bluff raising, etc.).


Hand 2

Now I've been thinking that we should bet a more polarized range here and check through our hands that have medium-strength showdown value.

This is mainly the reason I am betting here. I feel that I am going to be betting this flop so often when checked to {88, 33, KQ, AK, KJ, air, flush draw} that if I am not betting hands like TT, JJ, etc that I am really unbalancing my range for checking through the flop and getting to the turn and river. And the range that I check through will be relatively weak, and will allow villain to play well against us if he applies significant aggression on the turn and river, as I don't think we can call both streets. The only way I see to combat unbalancing our ranges would be to either (A) bet our marginal hands on the flop or (B) check behind some of our nut hands. Not sure which, if either, is the way to go.

What's our play with a hand with a little less SD value here? 77? 98? 87? We should be more likely to bet those hands yes, as we are more likely to lose at SD?

id think about the image im giving off as well by 3 betting a lot.

[Miffed22001]

Hand 3

Villain is a 13/11/5 reg that cbets 70% of flops and 2 barrels 20% of turns. He has a turn AF of 1.3, with a river AF of 2.5.


I think this hand goes relatively well with hand number 2, as it still ponders on the premise of when and if we should be betting our hand with marginal SD value. Preflop and flop are relatively standard. The turn is where obvious questions arise to me. Should we be betting our marginal hands on this turn? I feel we will be betting floats, nut hands, on this turn, and that if we check through we are setting ourselves up for a relatively shitty river spot. A spot where we turn our cards fairly face up, and villain can play relatively well against us.

I am usually clueless on this river. I'm also usually calling, but it just seems like this line from villain is generally some sort of thin value that I can't beat, and very rarely a bluff.

Thoughts?

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG lydia12345 ($203.00)
UTG+1 RSSmoot ($304.20)
MP1 slickster998 ($209.10)
MP2 Artielpc ($203.00)
CO Hero ($242.65)
BTN wormnorton ($531.95)
SB mjrnt ($415.40)
BB acegee$$ ($210.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 8 players) Hero is CO
3 folds, Artielpc raises to $6, Hero calls $6, 3 folds

Flop: ($15, 2 players)
Artielpc bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($35, 2 players)
Artielpc checks, Hero checks

River: ($35, 2 players)
Artielpc bets $22, Hero folds

Final Pot: $35

Artielpc wins $55.30 ( won +$17.30 )
Hero lost -$16

you need to figure out how you are going to get somebody off AA here: and then balance how you might play some big hands in this spot eg JJJ etc and try to play them that way occasionally to never be bluffing yada yada

[Stacks]

Bumpy Bump.. Come on guys... I feel like we are always overlooking the why behind our actions, especially in the forums.. I want to start looking at the why behind the decisions we are making.. What factors do we need to consider to make the correct decision in spots that are often difficult/tricky for alot of individuals here asking for help?

I feel like I posted a few hands that many individuals here encounter often, and are never really sure in their actions. We make a decision, but we are never certain if it's the most +ev, or even if it is +ev at all. And this is inexcusable. Therefore, I ask anyone to post any hand history of a situation that they commonly find themselves in so we, as a group, can analyze the situation and try to clear the fog for not only the individual posting the situation, but many others that might have a hard time in that spot.

Responding in a manner such as "Standard bet/call/raise" isn't going to help the individual, or others. The hands wouldn't be posted if OP knew they were standard. Also a little help from some some ballers in helping us understand the theory behind the actions, and how to come to the conclusions you have made, would help magnitudes.

I'll start with this hand.. I feel like I encounter this spot too often, and am relatively clueless as to the best line to take. This is a flop I will be c/ring often with my air and nut hands. However, I never know exactly what to do with my marginal hands in this spot. By calling we are not only setting ourself up to be outdrawn, but bluffed rather frequently as we likely won't c/c 3 streets. So by c/cing the flop we are totally polarizing our range I believe. However, a c/r is likely to only fold out worse and get looked up by better. Therefore, my confusion.

$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG cliff47 ($396.80)
UTG+1 EW_99 ($543.20)
MP1 Willi123 ($422.00)
MP2 Huha'sgirl ($796.35)
CO clagenti ($522.50)
BTN Bagarn72 ($557.10)
SB Hero ($400.00)
BB allizdoR ($70.00)

Pre-flop: ($6, 8 players) Hero is SB
5 folds, Bagarn72 raises to $12, Hero calls $10, 1 fold

Flop: ($28, 2 players)
Hero checks, Bagarn72 bets $20, $20 to Hero ($388)?

[elipsesjeff]

Hand 3 is a fairly standard fold IMO. He's going to vtown you with a crap load once you check the turn back.

Hand 4: FWIW this is a pretty bad board for Opponent to cbet if he holds a non-pair non-ace combination given your range and your likely folding combinations. Whether he knows that I have no idea but I would expect him to not 2 barrel this board lightly without at least an ace. What is your read on villain I could find it in post?

[kingnat]

OK... i am not much of a thinking player... and I don't have time to think this all the way through. But obv we need to know this villains ATS range and calls 3b range to some extent. Since the steal vs. a blind 3b is a unique situation it's probably incorrect to rely completely on this.. as villains call a 3b range IP is likely much larger than his range OOP (e.g. his MP range and our OTB 3b).

Most of the time... 3b'ing is bad since villian will fold worse and call with better... but for certain villians it may be better to just 3b. What would those villains look like?

By calling with 88-JJ we are playing our hand primarily for it's current value. It'd be worth considering the way we play the hand when we hit a set... and make sure we don't make our lines horribly different.

Player wise it would be important to identify those villains that are likely to 3 barrel... and those that are likely to give up unimproved.

Versus aggro 3barrel guy, I think we should be more likely 3 bet early... This is probably wrong... as 3 barrel guy is 3 barrelling with a Huge range which we have good equity against... but I'm also a pussy and would be too likely to fold with scary cards coming. I guess we could check this by giving aggro a 3 barreling range.. for this kind of board and various turn and river cards. But with like 88 if a Q and T falls .. are we like fist pumping calling the whole way? Currently I'm unable to do that.

Board texture is also important... but my kids are hanging all over me... so I can't finish typing... I realize the above is totally random.. and not at all connected. I don't practice doing this stuff very much.. mostly cuz I'm embarrassed by how poorly I do it. Looking forward to more responses... as I think I tend to play these situations poorly.

[Stacks]

Hand 3 is a fairly standard fold IMO. He's going to vtown you with a crap load once you check the turn back.


I agree that the river is a fold.. It just seems kinda gross, but in my limited experience a regular is betting there for value more than a bluff.. I'm relatively sure if I was to look him up I would see KJ, QJ, TT, 99 relatively often.. Therefore I folded.. The real question I had though was the turn.. I'm betting this turn with all my nut hands, and all my air hands that floated yes? So doesn't that mean that when I check it back I'm likely on a marginal hand VERY much like the hand I actually have here. So wouldn't that leave me relatively vulnerable to being bluffed on the river? Especially if I believe a reg would be going for value on this river more likely than bluffing?

Hand 4: FWIW this is a pretty bad board for Opponent to cbet if he holds a non-pair non-ace combination given your range and your likely folding combinations. Whether he knows that I have no idea but I would expect him to not 2 barrel this board lightly without at least an ace. What is your read on villain I could find it in post?


I'm sorry about reads.. This was my first ever session at 400nl, and I knew absolutely nothing about this particular villain. I didn't get to see any showdowns or anything. Can we just assume he is a standard thinking tagg stealing around 30%ish for arguments sake?

I understand that this is a very shitty board for villain to be cbetting without a hand. But tbh, I'm unsure exactly what to make of this.. I'm unsure of the exact range he would be cbetting. I'm sure he would cbet sets, large pps, but is he b/3betting flush draws? Is he stacking off with 99-QQ?

I am relatively sure he should be checking back the majority of his non-paired broadway cards (KJ, KQ, QJ, etc) that don't have the flush draw. However, since he did cbet is a c/raise really a good decision since he should have somewhat of a hand to do this?

[Stacks]

Kingnat: I really don't like the idea of 3betting in this instance, or in many instances with 88-JJ type hands at FR tbh.. If I can 3b like TT/JJ for value because villain is opening such a wide range and not folding very often at all, then that's a different story.. But in most instances, that won't be the case.

Instead, we are building a pot OOP with a weak made hand. The thing about a hand like 88, etc, imo (I can probably be corrected here). If we 3b and say the flop comes undercards, we likely aren't going to get much value when ahead.. And if we do get a call on the flop, villain is likely to either have us beat, or decent equity with overcards. Would be much better to 3bet a hand like KJ, so when we fire a cbet, we likely still have outs against villains calling range. Not sure if that made sense.. Having a bit of a time trying to put that thought into words.

[griffey24]

Hand 1 - I like every street up till the river. I really can't imagine what hands are c/c the turn that will c/f that river very often. You also have the best hand a reasonable amount. I just check the river back.

Hand 2 - I don't really see why >Jx is pot controlling on this turn. I'd expect a barrel here a lot. Given that, I'd probably bet this turn a fair bit, checking back sometimes too. As played, yah we're probably getting value towned now on the river, though I still think villain is better off going for for flop/turn value on this type of board.

Hand 3 - I'd bet this flop a fair bit unless I had reads that he checks top pairs or JJ/QQ type hands. EIther way, if we get c/c'd I'm shutting down and trying to get to showdown.

Hand 4 - From your comments it sounds like you think c/c or c/r are your only options. Why can't you lead here? Or even if you don't lead here, in general I think people should start thinking about leading as a viable option. Yah sometimes you induce raises, but other times you induce light call downs from ppl that think you're FoS.

[Renton]

1: fold flop imo, i usually balance my play with AQs here by making a play 100% of the time theres a diamond on the flop, and folding on flops like this where all i have is overs. Even though he's betting every flop, his range is fairly strong here i think. He opened utg1 and you called in mp, indicating that you will have a pair on this flop a pretty high percentage of the time. Its a nitpick honestly.

Turn is an EASY check. You'll indicate a more credible range of legitimate hands by waiting till the river.

River is standard now that you got here, its makeup for your spewy turn bet, and in a way legitimizes it. As in, betting turn to check behind river is bad. Checking turn to bet river would be better than both of these though.

2: I don't see much point in betting. With a more vulnerable pair like 22 its an easier bet. With QQ it would be a really easy check. TT is close, but i'd check. Btw, i'd bet no more than half the pot if i did bet.


3: fine, if he was going to bluff he'd ahve bet the turn. I also like checking turn.

4: i think i prefer leading the flop and folding to a raise, now that you've checked i'd call. Raising is terrible.




I think you'd have a much easier time playing these small-mid pocket pair type hands if you simply concede that they aren't very robust hands and will get outdrawn a lot. They won't make you much money postflop unless they hit sets. They have little ability to form nut hands once the flop comes and doesn't give you a set. You just need to make weakish folds with them, especially oop because they essentially have no meaningful future on the turn and river. Stop worring about showing them down and stop worrying about protecting your hand.

[griffey24]

River is standard now that you got here, its makeup for your spewy turn bet, and in a way legitimizes it. As in, betting turn to check behind river is bad. Checking turn to bet river would be better than both of these though.

What hands by villain, will bet the flop, c/c the turn (instead of betting it himself) and then c/f river to our bet? After he c/c the turn, it seems like he's taking a line to get us to induce. Or at least, he'll convince himself that he's gotten us to bluff by checking, so he might even call us lighter.

[Muzzard]

1. I usually just fold, but with ur read I agree with you line. I would generally raise with my nut hands. But if you dont then, calling is good and I assume you'd raise or fold turn if he two barreled? I think by river his hands realy looks like 77-99. I cant think what else he'd c/c turn with and I dont think there are many Tx hands in his opening range and he'd double barrel like AJ/TT+ imo

2. I think I always bet this, if he's checked here he has air or nuts obv and I dont think we are goign to extract much value by checking and betting turn and we always give him the possibility to hit overs.

3. I don't think he is vbetting worse on river and seems a dumb spot to bluff. I think he'd 3barrel or at least bet turn with air. So good fold imo, though I'd be inclided to bet turn myself- b/f ldo. If i get called I'm not sure wtf I'd do on river, I guess fold or check behind.

4. c/c, c/f river. I like the idea of a lead/fold that some ppl suggested - it is a bad board for villain to be cbetting air though

[Muzzard]

oh and for funnies.

1. yes
2. yes
3. no
4. yes

[mcatdog]

Hand 1 - Renton is right. I also randomize my play in these situations by only bluffing if I have a backdoor draw to the nut flush. Just wanted to point out that following statement is really wrong and I don't know why no one else has criticized it:

Tbh, I would be rather stumped if villain was to double barrel this turn. I would likely only be doing this for value with 22,44,TT,JJ,TJ.

Hand 2 - First of all I completely disagree with Muzzard that his check means he has nuts or air. He's pot controlling 8x or 99-QQ a large percentage of the time and your play should depend on how you expect him to play those hands on the turn and the river. I also disagree with QQ being an easy check, as I think we have the best hand almost all of the time and I wouldn't expect villain to fold to a 1/3 pot bet very often. In this spot I'd always bet my monsters and my missed broadway hands like AQ and QJ that likely have six outs if called, sometimes bet my marginal stuff like TT, and never bet small pairs like 22. Renton, I don't understand how you can say to bet 22 because it's vulnerable but then say to stop worrying about protecting your baby pairs.

Hand 3 - Very standard, only reason to consider calling is that he could be going for thin value with like A7 but that seems so unlikely that I'd snap fold.

Hand 4 - Agree with Renton again.