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Iceland is bankrupt. Pakistan faces same destiny

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  1. #1

    Default Iceland is bankrupt. Pakistan faces same destiny

    Iceland declared bankruptcy today. The country has literaly been in chaos these past days. All banks in the country have gone bankrupt and their currency droped 60% in one day. Everyone wants foreign currencies. Here is a thread where someone from iceland writes about his experiences for the past couple of days:

    https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=24585



    And in the meantime in pakistan:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...ankruptcy.html

    The central bank is running out of reserves. Pakistan says they need a bail out worth $100 billion from the international community. This shit is increadibly scary mainly because Pakistan is a nuclear power in an unstable region.
  2. #2
    hmm, im sceptical till i see it at a rescpectable news site, and not a forum post
  3. #3
    2_thumbs

    I have money in some moneymarket mutual fund

    I'm debating just taking it out (it's dropped 30% over 13 months) and just putting the money in a CD for now. Godo/Bad idea?
  4. #4
    Well, no one can say we aren't living in interesting times.
  5. #5
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    i think money in stocks/mutual funds over the next 5-7 yrs is bad, mainly because of the baby boomers retiring causing the market to decline. but i guess with the possibility of a big recession coming, they might continue to work maybe? so delayed reaction. ah, whatever. just cash out, go to the casino, and put it all on black

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SaulPaul
    hmm, im sceptical till i see it at a rescpectable news site, and not a forum post
    I saw a swedish news report on tv that confirmed alot of it so I figured the forum post was quite reliable. But obviously I should have looked for another source as well. I found this for you.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...d.creditcrunch
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    2_thumbs

    I have money in some moneymarket mutual fund

    I'm debating just taking it out (it's dropped 30% over 13 months) and just putting the money in a CD for now. Godo/Bad idea?
    imo US is in the eye of the hurricane right now. I think the dollar can go into hyperinflation depending on how the Federal Reserve acts. In that case it doesn't matter where you put your dollars. Simply owning dollars is bad enough.
  8. #8
    similar to what was on the news today. didnt read / hear theyre bankrupt, just a bit fucked. dont mean to be argumentive
  9. #9
    wooooooow

    a giant global depression will lead to WW3
  10. #10
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    explains why icelandic companies arent replying to my applications
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  11. #11
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    2thumpsup, tnx for the site

    now, following some perverse analogies and recent trends, should we not buy more palladium? buy low sell high right?
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  12. #12
    I feel like I have to give my view on this and what I think you should do.

    If you believe that we are about to go into a depression/very deep recession then there is one main question you need to think about. Will it be deflationary or inflationary? The two different scenarios will require very different investing strategies. So far I think it all points to an inflationary depression. This means that the economic downturn will be accompanied by rising prices of every necessity you need. If you are dependent on a social security check or similar, sucks but it won't buy you anything.

    What you have to remember is that the current crisis is a result of the housing bubble. The losses have already occured and there is no way the government can take them away, yet they try. The government doesn't create wealth, it only redistributes it. So when the government talks about bailing someone out you have to realize that someone else is paying the bill. Since no one is talking about raising taxes the main way people will pay is through inflation.

    The main thing that points towards inflation is that the FED chairman Ben Bernanke has studied the great depression. The only problem is that he got it all wrong. He believes that the problem is that banks don't want to lend so people can't consume. He wants to inject more money into the banking system so that people can keep consuming. He doesn't realize that the reason people can't continue to consume is because they can't afford it. Everyone has consumed too much. A period of overconsumption inevitably leads to a period of underconsumption. This is why all major recessions has been preceded by a major boom. The great depression was preceded by the roaring twenties, the stagflation of the seventies was preceded by Lyndon Johnsons "Guns and Butter" program, and the current crisis is preceded by the housing bubble. However, the person in charge of the money supply of the global reserve currency doesn't seem to understand this, and he so far he seems very determined to keep injecting liquidity (read: inflation) in order to get people start consuming again. What this basically means is that all the losses from the housing bubble are being transfered from those responsible for it to the dollar and US treasury notes. And there are trillions of dollars worth of losses, and that's a heavy weigth for the dollar to bear.

    So, if you want to stay ahead of the curve you should have a close eye at the federal reserve. So far, they have been doing everything wrong. They created this mess and they think we can get out of it by keep doing the same thing. If you want to read up on what they have done during all this bailout debacle i suggest you read this (it is not a comforting read):

    http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1223400153.php
    The FED is essentially broke already and they only have one weapon left, inflation.

    So what do i think you should do? First, you need to realize that your main concern shouldn't be making money right now. You should be concerned about preserving what money and wealth you already have. This is not the time for conventional investing.

    Second, you have to determine wether you believe it will be deflationary or inflationary. I certainly believe it will be inflationary but you should make up your own mind. In an inflationary environment you want to own hard assets because money will lose a lot of value and buy you less. Real estates would be good unlees you would have to pay bubble prices. Precious and industrial metals and just about any commodity such as wheat and similar will be good. If you buy gold make sure to own the physical metal, not just the paper variant. You could also diversify into foreign currencies and foreign stocks as well. I think Asia is in better overall shape than Europe so look into those stocks.

    Some people say that gold is very expensive right now. It's not. If we are in for an inflationary depression gold is still dirt cheap. I've also heard a lot of rumors about physical gold becoming very hard to obtain recently, but the price has barely moved. This could be because the paper gold (futures) will fail to deliver and if that happens we'll see a huge spike soon. Personally, I have more than half my money in gold.

    Also, it may be a very good idea to stock up on food and other necessities at home. If we are in for a financial disaster there will be a lot of infrastuctural problems and being prepared certainly doesn't hurt.

    In the short run I don't think anyone can predict what will happen. I believe anything is possible right now and that it can happen fast. So you really should prepair as soon as you can. But lets assume that the situation does stabilize for now. What will happen in the coming years? Take a look at this:



    As you can see most of the subprime mortgages have already reset but there is a second wave of option adjustable rate mortgages and Alt-A mortgages about to reset. Considering that interest rates are rising and will continue to rise we can expect a couple of things from this. First of all, these mortgages were also semi-risky and will result in a lot of foreclosures as well. Second, even those who are able to make their payments will have to cut spending to afford it, which will decrease profits even more for companies. Unemployment will rise, which obviously will put even more pressure on the economy and individuals.

    Since the government has taken on the impossible task of helping everyone we will probably see a lot more government financed programs and bailouts. The only problem is, the government is broke as well. It's gonna print and borrow money like there is no tomorrow. If they continue on the bailout path, I don't see any way the dollar will survive this. Interest rates on government bonds are already getting lower. If foreigners start seeing that the interest rates aren't even making up for the inflation they would dump the bonds and the dollar. That would be one hell of a ride.
  13. #13
    that read alot like peter schiff post. i like it

    whats your quick impression on buying an index fund atm? (not in an american index)
  14. #14
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    where can I buy material gold, not the paper one?

    how do i know for sure i bought the actual metal?
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  15. #15
    I've read criticism against them because they are too diversified so they can have a lot of exposure too countries and sectors that will suffer alot.
  16. #16
    i really like peter schiff, and i believe he is mostly correct on his current predictions, but i also believe that he's not accounting for certain necessary factors and is a little over the top. and possibly his prediction successes over the last few years has made him more personally confident in his positions.

    anyways, im not buying hyperinflation in this scenario. USD is the most important currency on the global scale and US economy is the most important economy. what this means is that there's more give and take with USD purchasing power when compared to other currencies. this is a global problem, many other nations did the same stupid shit we did, and that hurts their currency, and when their currency hurts our rallies.

    isnt there so much USD in the world that we would have to print like 8-10 trillion or something for the USD to collapse? also the USD collapsing or the US econ becoming decimated is way bad for the rest of the world so they'll do their part in keeping that from happening. even if they dont we're fucking warmongers who have no intention of being anything but the world leader so we'll go to war before our econ collapses. we dont spend more on military than the rest of the world combined for no reason.

    i honestly think that US will weather this crisis better than most others affected by it.

    take my speculation fwiw, im new to economics.
  17. #17
    [quote="Jack Sawyer"]where can I buy material gold, not the paper one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    how do i know for sure i bought the actual metal?
    A paper on gold is like a contract of getting it. There are rumors that some will default on delivery. The absolutely safest way is to have it in your hand. I don't know where to buy in your area. I have some gold at my home and some att www.bullionvault.com.

    There are other websites such as e-gold.com and goldmoney.com as well. If i bought on the internet now i would probably use goldmoney instead of bullionvault.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    i really like peter schiff, and i believe he is mostly correct on his current predictions, but i also believe that he's not accounting for certain necessary factors and is a little over the top. and possibly his prediction successes over the last few years has made him more personally confident in his positions.

    anyways, im not buying hyperinflation in this scenario. USD is the most important currency on the global scale and US economy is the most important economy. what this means is that there's more give and take with USD purchasing power when compared to other currencies. this is a global problem, many other nations did the same stupid shit we did, and that hurts their currency, and when their currency hurts our rallies.

    isnt there so much USD in the world that we would have to print like 8-10 trillion or something for the USD to collapse? also the USD collapsing or the US econ becoming decimated is way bad for the rest of the world so they'll do their part in keeping that from happening. even if they dont we're fucking warmongers who have no intention of being anything but the world leader so we'll go to war before our econ collapses. we dont spend more on military than the rest of the world combined for no reason.

    i honestly think that US will weather this crisis better than most others affected by it.

    take my speculation fwiw, im new to economics.
    Hyperinflation or not doesn't matter. As long as it's inflationary the same strategy should apply.
  19. #19
    ty two_thumbs, good stuff
  20. #20
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    You're a smart guy Thumbs, nice read.


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  21. #21
    Since Iceland went bankrupt, that is like, 37 or 38 people, right?
  22. #22
    Awesome stuff; cheers 2_Thumbs_Up
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SaulPaul
    hmm, im sceptical till i see it at a rescpectable news site, and not a forum post
    A news blackout or at least a softening of the truth is standard considering how much of an effect confidence has.
  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash256
    Quote Originally Posted by SaulPaul
    hmm, im sceptical till i see it at a rescpectable news site, and not a forum post
    A news blackout or at least a softening of the truth is standard considering how much of an effect confidence has.
    208 versions of this story on Google news and counting... and that's only the sources they pick up... so not 'sactly much of a blackout.

    Dig under the covers on this one and its really a "no sh!t" story. Country that had sh!t for an economy, living on herrings and sheep just 20 years ago, builds an import fed lifestyle out of paper wealth financed by riding the finance bubble. Bubble corrects (as all bubbles do) and they go back to sheep and herrings. Not really much of a story.... Single dimensional economies are highly vulnerable, and always have been. Don't care whether that growth is funded by speculative derivatives or oil -- when your one-trick pony hits the pooper, game over.
  25. #25
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    good stuff, 2thumbs. but, one thing i dont see anyone offering opinions about...

    CREDIT CARD BALANCES!!!

    the reason america is broke is, like you mentioned briefly, because they cant afford it.

    what happens when they cant afford the minimum payments because, in the interest of profits, Citi and others start raising interest rates on their cards...again? and, pushing more people teetering on the edge of paying the minimums into bankruptcy?

    credit companies cant show a profit if no one can pay their balances. no profit causes selling of company stock and devaluation of the company itself. causing the layoff of employees...that cant pay their bills because they owe so much debt because they had to have it NOW. rising interest on credit cards (in an attempt to stay solvent) will push more into bankruptcy, which will cause more consumer credit to falter, and virtual money that everyone thought would be there to vanish...when they need it most. this, coupled with the baby boomers starting to need money to live on post employment, is the perfect storm.

    however, what do you do if this comes to fruition? you THINK DIFFERENTLY!!! when people are selling, you should be looking for opportunity to BUY (note i didnt say "buy now"). this "perfect storm" will provide opportunity beyond belief for those that are prepared. GET PREPARED!! not "what to do with my money?" but, "what TO DO period?"

    careers that provide necessities, not luxuries, will always be there in some form. start thinking of what you would do if people start getting fired right and left. start thinking of how YOU could provide necessity.

    generally, the people that do the opposite of the masses come out ok. some...very well. now is the time to start thinking differently. somehow i think this forum is full of people that think outside the box.
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  26. #26
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  27. #27
    The answer...

    Stop bailing anyone out. You live with what you created.

    There. Now the chips fall where they will. It isn't up to the government to bail out the banks. Let the banks fail. Let the ones who are solvent stay solvent.

    It would lead to the biggest re-evaluation of pricing and value of things ever.

    Thus houses would be valued for truly what they are worth, not the inflated rate they are valued at now.

    Sure... recession, depression, etc. But hey, we'd live through it... most of us would at least.
  28. #28
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    I never know how much to be concerned and how much is news hype, but for sure it' not a nice set of circumstances at the moment.

    Spending in the UK has been down for ages, the bank that just hit the wall in Iceand prior to the official 'the whole country is bankrupt' declaration, took about 80 million pounds of local council money from the UK with it, think they'd have their eye on this sort of thing don't you? Individual investors over here in the UK are OK as the UK Government has agreed to refund any UK savers their money they lost, as they don't see why savers should be punished, not sure myself that's a great use of tax payers money but there you go, I guess if I was the guy on the news last night that had a couple of hundred k invested I'd have different view.

    The UK government has also had to put about 1/2 a trillion pounds into the banking system to help stabalise it as banks were starting to hit the wall at a rate of knots.

    I just hope it all sorts itself out sooner rather than later.

    On a more positive note... not all world powers seem to be feeling the stresses of the current global financial crisis...

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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
    The bank that just hit the wall in Iceand prior to the official 'the whole country is bankrupt' declaration, took about 80 million pounds of local council money from the UK with it, think they'd have their eye on this sort of thing don't you?
    Meh, there's not much you can do about that sort of thing. Note that Brown has frozen that bank's assets in the UK under the Terrorism Act which is quite funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
    Individual investors over here in the UK are OK as the UK Government has agreed to refund any UK savers their money they lost.
    Up to £50k.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
    I just hope it all sorts itself out sooner rather than later.
    This is a full-blown downswong. It might take a while.
  30. #30
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    I'm fairly sure the 50k ceiling doesn't apply in the Icelandic case (see here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...vernment.banks) Also I was a tad off with the figures for local government it's estimated at 800 million lol.

    Yeah I see what you mean about it just kind of happeneing, but there are always indicators for these kind of events prior, anyway it does kind of beg the question why this money wasn't invested in British soil?!

    As well as the banks assets, he's also frozen most large icelandic companies assets, and is considering taking legal action action Iceland... hmm what fun
  31. #31
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    2_thumbs up, that was a well written article. Are you an investment guru or wallstreet man?


    Warren Buffet always said, buy land their not making anymore of it. which is very reasonable advice.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhappy333
    2_thumbs up, that was a well written article. Are you an investment guru or wallstreet man?


    Warren Buffet always said, buy land their not making anymore of it. which is very reasonable advice.
    umm excuse me...




    The same company that brought us The Palm Islands, Al Nakheel Properties (Nakheel Corp), have done it again expanding their portfolio of man-made islands with this latest Dubai island project shaped like the continents of the world. The World will consist of between 250 to 300 smaller private artifical islands divided into four categories - private homes, estate homes, dream resorts, and community islands. Each island will range from 250,000 to 900,000 square feet in size, with 50 to 100 metres of water between each island. The development is to cover an area of 9 kilometers in length and 6 kilometers in width, surrounded by an oval shaped breakwater. The only means of transportation between the islands will be by marine transport.

    Construction has begun on the $US 1.8 billion project which is set to be completed by the end of 2005. It will be located 4 kilometers off the shore of Jumeirah, close to the The Palm Jumeirah, between Burj Al Arab and Port Rashid of Dubai, United Arab Emirates (UAE). Each island will be sold to selected private developers and are expected to have pricing beginning at Dhs. 25 million (US$ 6.85 million).



    and

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mrhappy333
    Warren Buffet always said, buy land their not making anymore of it. which is very reasonable advice.
    Dude, Mark Twain said that. Mark Twain was not a rich man. Take his advice on literary characterization but leave the finance stuff to others.
  34. #34
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    wow, I forgot about those Islands!
    I wonder how much a house on that shit costs?
    3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
  35. #35
    would be the maddest place to live

    does anyone know if foreign owned banks in britian eg, abbey national (spanish owned) are covered by the 50k guarantee? i owuld greatly appreciate if sum1 could tell me
  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    isnt there so much USD in the world that we would have to print like 8-10 trillion or something for the USD to collapse?
    We are in that range now.

    U.S. Pledges Top $7.7 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...rhU&refer=home

    These numbers are out of this world. And this does not include the programs that where announced today. We are above the 8 trillion mark by now. Add the fact that Obama has pretty much promised to provide stimulus packages and record-high budget deficits already.

    They had another article on CNBC where they kept count of the money and compared it to some big world events. Apparently the cost of WWII was around 4 trillion adjusted for inflation. So I guess the current bailout bill would be something like two world wars.
  37. #37
    Should I be scared enough to take a large portion of my bankroll from stars (usd) and put it in a bank (in gbp)? I have no idea about finance and trading etc. but it seems like the economy is so swingy atm that a wrong move could cost me a lot... What do i do??
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  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by badgers
    Should I be scared enough to take a large portion of my bankroll from stars (usd) and put it in a bank (in gbp)? I have no idea about finance and trading etc. but it seems like the economy is so swingy atm that a wrong move could cost me a lot... What do i do??
    First of all, I'm not very comfortable in giving investment advices. I haven't studied economics enough yet, though I have been learning from people who predicted this mess. The key debate is wether we'll see inflation or deflation. I'm in the inflation camp but I'm not fully convinced.

    Anyway, I would definitely take advantage of the current dollar rally and sell a lot of my dollars. As I understand it, the rally is just technical and is caused by US firms who are forced to sell their assets all over the world and get cash, which is creating a huge demand for dollars. It's possible that the dollar could rally some more but I think it's too much of a gamble. I have no idea what's going to happen to the dollar short term but I think it's very -ev long term.

    However, I don't really think the gbp is much of a safe haven either. I actually don't trust any government currency right now. If the dollar collapses we are in uncharted territories. I'm not really in to the situation over in Britain but you seem to be hit pretty hard and afaik you guys are taking some pretty drastic measures against it as well, no?

    One pretty safe bet would be to simply stock up with necessities that you know you'll need (food, hygiene etc). Since I personally believe in inflation I've bought gold for most of my money. It has been holding up incredibly well throughout this crisis so far and actually made new record highs against the pound yesterday. If you are uncertain about the future I think it's a very good idea to hedge and at least put some of your money into it. It's known to hold it's value throughout crisises.

    The big problem is that unexpected moves by governments could change the invesment advice in a second. But this is my take on it right now.
  39. #39
    I thought the dollar was getting stronger because the us stopped loaning money from China a couple of months ago (they basically own the US now) and there is still a strong demand for the dollar abroad, the high dollar. Private consumption is down all over the world and that isnt esp good since it drives the economy, consumption------->Jobs----------->Tax revenue---------> Goverment revenue

    The problem now is that when people stop consuming, buissnesses go under which leads to unemployment and decreased tax revenue which leads to and even bigger deficit. Still you have to try and save these enormous employers so that the problem doesnt worsen and the economy collapses.
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by 2_Thumbs_Up
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    isnt there so much USD in the world that we would have to print like 8-10 trillion or something for the USD to collapse?
    We are in that range now.

    U.S. Pledges Top $7.7 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit:
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...rhU&refer=home

    These numbers are out of this world. And this does not include the programs that where announced today. We are above the 8 trillion mark by now. Add the fact that Obama has pretty much promised to provide stimulus packages and record-high budget deficits already.

    They had another article on CNBC where they kept count of the money and compared it to some big world events. Apparently the cost of WWII was around 4 trillion adjusted for inflation. So I guess the current bailout bill would be something like two world wars.
    i really have no clue how much USD is in the world, and i pulled that figure out of my ass. i have heard there's upwards of 100 tril but really i dunno. zimbabwe style hyperinflation required approximately 15k-20k% inflation. that is soooooooo much, and i doubt we will even scratch that. however, zimbabwe is a super extreme example. schiff may have predicted this mess, but he will be wrong about his USD/zimbabwe prediction. also, USD will rally against other currencies since this is global and every other major currency is being/will be printed.

    ive been paying a ton of attention to this, learning a lot, and i really do not know what will happen. part of me selfishly hopes the market declines more because the easiest way to get wealthy is to buy near the bottom of a crash.

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