15K hand $25NL check-in

[sarbox68]

I think I run goot... but I needz validations...

...and feedback that will help run gooter....

[kmind]

Definitely increase your VPIP/PFR from CO and Button to around 30 to begin with imo. I would have sworn SOME people steal at these stakes? If so, start figuring out who and 3bet them more from the SB, and especially on the Button if they steal from the CO. You are playing very nitty so far but those are a few things I suggest for now and you can open your game up even more once you start getting used to it. I'm also more aggro. I'd like to see your river aggro stats as I doubt any 25nlers value bet thin enough on the river.

[cardsman1992]

Doesn't look bad, you could up your overall AF a bit maybe. Button VPIP/PFR differential could be just a bit smaller? Maybe more like 23/20?

Win at SD is sweet, not quite sure where the sweet spot is between checking behind too much with the best hand and bluffing too much. I think you are about as close as what it gets without venturing into nitland....

I would be very happy with what you have overall! Nice job!

[swiggidy]

Well, you're eventually going to have to loosen up and learn to play poker. But you're going to get paid by many folk, so it's not terrible at microstakes. Keep on keeping on I say.

Start raising more of your limping hands to start. Also start raising more from the CO (unless guy on your left gives you problems). People down here understand that btn raises are steals, but haven't quite figured out that co raises are also often steals.

Don't get too wrapped up in your stats. If you're winning money, and feel like you have an edge at the table then your stats can piss off.

Your position winnings are amazingly in line. I'm the biggest winner from UTG, haha.

[sarbox68]

These comments is the sh!t... please keep 'em coming so I can properly adjusticate...

[kmind]

Yeah another thing they said that really is true: Don't fix what's not broken.

So there may be things here and there to fix but if how you are playing is making money by all means do that until you feel like you are really missing out on more money.

[Outlaw]

I'd like to see you open up a bit more. How many tables do you play? If you aren't able to run at least like 20/17 at 6max, you might need to play less tables for a bit so you can concentrate more on reads.

On one table, for example, I raise any two on the button (blinds running 12/8 etc with a 3bet of less than 4%).. on others I need at least q10s or better.. look at the af of the people in your blinds.. if they 3bet like 12% or better look out.. get ready to 4bet for value on the button... otherwise they may run you over.

Spot the maniacs/idiots fast.. and get their money fast for they won't be there long. Look for peeps running 80/10ish. They are calling stations and you can take them to value town. Be sure to 3bet them like crazy.. remember you want as much money in as possible preflop against these guys and you want to isolate... they will maybe fold twice before they start going into calling station mode.. 3bet twice, win win, 3bet thrice with the nuts.. stack their ass. I love those guys.

Other than that you look like your doing great.. keep it up. The only other thing I see is it appears you need to 3bet more from the blinds. If you are at or ahead of the villains raising range, 3bet like a beast until they get pissed and you have AA/KK.. show me da money!

Tj

[swiggidy]

lose 3betting is not necessary at 25NL

[kmind]

It can be implemented vs. the right opponents. I'd mainly do it in the SB vs. blind stealers. The thing is that 25NLers really don't know how to play in 3bet pots at all so they just fold them wayyyy too often.

[daven]

thats 2pt BB/100. That's not running good.
further proof that nit is ok at micros - well done.
and it's working, so make any changes slowly...

if you raised a little more than limping/calling, and 3-bet a little more then you'd look almost exactly like my fullring stats...

suggestions:
post your steal stats, probably steal more. Definitely iso more.
Defend your blinds by 3-betting known stealers
relax

[Miffed22001]

Youre clearing winning at a decent rate, and you dont need to be 24/21/99998 at 25nl if you arent yet capable fo playing that game.

Sure, youre clearly a nit. but thats winning at a good rate. its been said though, eventually you will want to start opening up a little more, but i wouldnt try that until you reach 100nl as these stats will beat 25nl/50nl easily if you can play just a little after the flop

[cardsman1992]

Start raising more of your limping hands to start. Also start raising more from the CO (unless guy on your left gives you problems). People down here understand that btn raises are steals, but haven't quite figured out that co raises are also often steals.

Your position winnings are amazingly in line. I'm the biggest winner from UTG, haha.

The steal from the CO, esp at these levels, is underrated. Solid advice IMO. I have better "steal success" from the CO than the BU myself.

Swig, if you win most UTG, then plz coach me!!!

[swiggidy]

thats 2pt BB/100.

Was there an announcement that people were switching from ptBB to bb/100? Cuz I missed it, and that makes me not so excited about my winrate.

Cards, move down a couple levels so you're EP is rarely 3bet and you almost never get faced with tough decisions post.

does HEM use bb/100 instead of ptBB?

[Fnord]

I'd rather eat dirt than play that tight pre-flop.

[Fnord]

Button VPIP/PFR differential could be just a bit smaller? Maybe more like 23/20?

People who say things like this make me cry.

[Chopper]

i dont think a 4 is that bad given the state of the game these days.

however, its no longer poker....its a nitfest. the rockiest player wins, and thats NOT poker. its just plain gay.

thank you, USA, for shutting off the recreational gambler. and, of course, a big shout out to 2p2 for training nits!

that said, i dont think i would run at a 4 anymore. but, i'm a nit, too. i just cant stand the boredom of waiting for set-over-set to actually get paid.

gl to anyone that plays FR below 200NL. the only rocks i like are in my highball glass.

[Fnord]

He's playing 6-max.

You can beat up nits just fine at 6-max unlimited hold'them. You just have to make the right adjustments and not be looking for the big score.

You can start by learning how to fold AK pre-flop.

[CBAT]

What is the difference between ptBB/100 and BB/100?

[Chopper]

2X.

because, in limit, big bets are double the big blind, pokertracker came up with an "equivalent" for NL games.

hence the "pt"bb/100, where pt stands for pokertracker. use it, dont use it. its, however, "understood" that NL players are using ptbb's when talking about winrates.

[cardsman1992]

Button VPIP/PFR differential could be just a bit smaller? Maybe more like 23/20?

People who say things like this make me cry.

Explain plz?

I like flatting as well, just think that there can't be as many opportunities to do it as sarbox's stats suggest. I'm not being results oriented, rather I think it's more mindset oriented.

I may be off base just wondering how.

[swiggidy]

I just crossed 15k today since I got HEM so I thought I'd post.

[swiggidy]

Button VPIP/PFR differential could be just a bit smaller? Maybe more like 23/20?

People who say things like this make me cry.

Explain plz?

I like flatting as well, just think that there can't be as many opportunities to do it as sarbox's stats suggest. I'm not being results oriented, rather I think it's more mindset oriented.

I may be off base just wondering how.

Well, playing at microstakes you're not faced with enough aggression that you need to be careful calling pre. There are enough people that are atrocious post, either taking weak hands too far, or not bet sizing properly. I could easily be down another $100-150, but people play passively and my 2 pair or TPTK makes it to showdown vs their set and I've only lost 1/2 a stack.

[Fnord]

I'll post my position stats when I get home.

LOLZ.

[swiggidy]

1 more thing, I went on a 4 buy-in downswing today and it cut my bb/100 in half, so just because you're running 2bb/100 doesn't mean much. 15k is a very small sample for basically everything except your vpip/pfr/3bet numbers.

[sarbox68]

i dont think a 4 is that bad given the state of the game these days.

however, its no longer poker....its a nitfest. the rockiest player wins, and thats NOT poker. its just plain gay.

thank you, USA, for shutting off the recreational gambler. and, of course, a big shout out to 2p2 for training nits!

that said, i dont think i would run at a 4 anymore. but, i'm a nit, too. i just cant stand the boredom of waiting for set-over-set to actually get paid.

gl to anyone that plays FR below 200NL. the only rocks i like are in my highball glass.

Gotta say, haven't been waiting for set over set.... nowhere near. I've set-camped at 2nl before running 14 tables FR. Know how that works. Not doing that here.

I am a nit, no doubt. Self proclaimed and okay with it. I will err on the side of pot control if there's a choice -- and happy to play a small pot w/ a TP medium/weak kicker or 2nd pr to SD rather than getting blown off a large pot by someone more aggro.

And big respect to your skillz Fnord - wouldn't think for a second you'd play like this 'cause a) god knowz it's been how many million hands since you were learning at $25NL and b) I believe learning thru the levels these days is different from 2-3 years ago, just from the crazy @ss old school posts I've read on the boards here from back then.

Things I'm working on right now...
a) the never ending work to improve hand-reading
b) playing draws more aggressively on the flop where appropriate
c) stealing more from the CO
d) 3-betting more against reads of steals in the blinds or CO steals on the button

That's more than enuff sh!t for me to focus on right now...

thanks for the suggestions peoples!

[sarbox68]

Oh... someone asked about ATS...

running 27% for total on this sample... most from the Bu obv

[Fnord]

[sarbox68]

...

Ha!... dude, you got PTmystats.... just take my sh!t and multiply it times 2... except for the $ won and sh!t....

wait a second, this is 6max?
those are my stats for FR...

[sarbox68]

wait a second, this is 6max?
those are my stats for FR...

Mine? Yup... 6max. Goal #1: Win money. Am now up $1,350 between my $10NL op and the early stage of this one. So that's working. Goal #2...n : Improve... which I know will include opening up more, better reading, more 3betting, etc. What I won't do is sacrifice consistent + winning (albeit not setting the world on fire...) to accomplish that. So little at a time is all good by me....

[Fnord]

You're giving up sooooo much by folding so many good hands.

[sarbox68]

You're giving up sooooo much by folding so many good hands.

I know you are 100% correct... with one caveat... that's only true if my post-flop skills keep up with a widening pre-flop range. If they don't, I'm not getting value, I'm getting more opportunities to spew...

So as i get more comfortable with the basics with a tighter range (right now including 3-betting more, stealing more, using shoves better, better reading skills, etc.) I can slowly widen my range. I stay profitable, play more hands, so ideally will gradually make more moniez.

I hope that makes sense...

well, really is it that hard to play KJs oop?

[sarbox68]

So FWIW, here's my PF range....

UTG: 22+, AKo, AKs, AQs, KQs
MP: add AJs
CO: add 98s+, JT+, J9s+, A9s+
Bu: (if opening...) 22+, A8+,A2s+, K2s+,KT+, QT+, Q8s+, J9o+, J9s+, T9o, 98o, T9s-54s, T8s-68s

I dial the Bu range back considerably if I don't have a good fold to cbet read or blinds are light 3bettors.

LOL @ folding AQo UTG

[sarbox68]

well, really is it that hard to play KJs oop?

Depends... when you're learning, it's easy to run up against someone flatting w/ KQ and AJ for a dominated top pair. I'll gladly play it IP 'cause I can pot control all the way to SD if I may be running against someone donking 2nd pair or worse...

So yeah, early on I've avoided that sh!t to get to consistently winning. Now I'll widen it out, focusing on making sure I don't give up all the other basics I've worked so d@mn hard to get wired....

[sarbox68]

LOL @ folding AQo UTG

Actually, before you get to lol'd ... you prolly notice it's not even listed...

I don't usually play it UTG, but should be added to MP

LOL @ folding AQo UTG

Actually, before you get to lol'd ... you prolly notice it's not even listed...

I don't usually play it UTG, but should be added to MP

AQo in 6max is the same thing as AKo in full ring
what you're doing is folding AKo UTG in full ring

Also, AJs is about as good as AQo

[sarbox68]

I prefer to balance my UTG range with more synchronous hands like 23, and 45....

[Fnord]

Axs and suited connectors should play a bigger part of your range. Learn how to take it away without a hand. Loose players have air so often it's not as hard as you'd think. If you can't take it away from a loose player, then they're way open to getting value towned thin and called down lukewarm because they're swimming without a suit too often.

Also, learn how to over-limp the button and complete the SB after a single limper. Both money moves for me that aren't talked about much.

[minSim]

AQo isn't a big moneymaker UTG, although at micro stakes you don't really want to fold this. The less pots you're in, the less pots you have to take the donks money.

Axs and suited connectors should play a bigger part of your range. Learn how to take it away without a hand. Loose players have air so often it's not as hard as you'd think. If you can't take it away from a loose player, then they're way open to getting value towned thin and called down lukewarm because they're swimming without a suit too often.

Also, learn how to over-limp the button and complete the SB after a single limper. Both money moves for me that aren't talked about much.

I like this and agree there's not much talking about. Care to share some thougts?

Fnord, your stats make me happy. A gameplan like this has been most succesful for me as well, by far. Your WWSF is very high, I'd be interested in your aggression factor and aggression frequency even more so.

[bigspenda73]

the lower the stakes the more AQ makes from UTG

that's spenda theory #346

[Fnord]

I'd be interested in your aggression factor and aggression frequency even more so.

60% c-bet flop
2.81 AF (3/2.8/2)
52% AFq

Leatherass said "be sticky in the pot". I take that advice to heart when I have a piece and don't casually turn the goodish middle part of my range into bluffs, which is a pretty popular sin among TAggs. I'm a major pain in the ass and difficult to nail to a hand.

[minSim]

I'd be interested in your aggression factor and aggression frequency even more so.

60% c-bet flop
2.81 AF (3/2.8/2)
52% AFq

Leatherass said "be sticky in the pot". I take that advice to heart when I have a piece and don't casually turn the goodish middle part of my range into bluffs, which is a pretty popular sin among TAggs. I'm a major pain in the ass and difficult to nail to a hand.

`

When are you starting coaching?

That AFq is very high, especially with the cbet%. Mine is probably half of yours, with an even higher cbet%....you'd own me so hard. I can't seem to find the breakthrough in mindset to stop being a weaktight player, floating in the lower parts between level 0 and 1.

Do you often consider A high as the goodish middle part of your range?

[swiggidy]

LOL @ folding AQo UTG

Actually, before you get to lol'd ... you prolly notice it's not even listed...

I don't usually play it UTG, but should be added to MP

AQo in 6max is the same thing as AKo in full ring
what you're doing is folding AKo UTG in full ring

Also, AJs is about as good as AQo

Do you think it's Ironic that you've been here 3 years and you're lecturing someone who's been here 3 months but has a bigger roll?

[daven]

When are you starting coaching?

If I wasn't lazy I'd read all of Fnord's posts here. Until I understood them.
And it's free.

[sarbox68]

the lower the stakes the more AQ makes from UTG

that's spenda theory #346

I understand this 'cause it rhymes...

Axs and suited connectors should play a bigger part of your range. Learn how to take it away without a hand. Loose players have air so often it's not as hard as you'd think. If you can't take it away from a loose player, then they're way open to getting value towned thin and called down lukewarm because they're swimming without a suit too often.

Also, learn how to over-limp the button and complete the SB after a single limper. Both money moves for me that aren't talked about much.

...this I'm more confused on, but I'll take a stab at my "take-aways"...
1. I'm re-working my pre-flop hands this week, and will pay special attention to working Axs & SCs into earlier positions. I'm already coldcalling PFRs in late position with these if the pot's MW and vils are deepstacked... partly 'cause it makes for easy post-flop decisions...
2. "Loose players w/ air..." -- standard c-bet semibluffing aside... I have a hard time knowing how hard to push on loose players when I don't make a hand either. Part of this is their wide range gives me trouble trying to put them on a hand. And if they got calling station tendencies to boot, I feel like I'm donking two streets into them w/ sh!t and either losing to SD or check/folding the river OOP. Gotta work on this...
3. "...can't take it away... value towned thin... lukewarm... swimming without a suit" I'd like to say I understood this....

... I don't

... but I'm sure it would add at least a bb/100 if I did, so if someone would take a few to 'splain I'd appreciate it...

[Fnord]

1. I'm re-working my pre-flop hands this week, and will pay special attention to working Axs & SCs into earlier positions.

Actually making a hand with those cards is plan B. Shit, I usually can't beat middle pair.

[swiggidy]

Don't necessarily add Axs & SCs to your EP playing.

Too many people call too many streets. You're not pushing anyone off a hand either.

Most of your 25NL profit is going to come from value. Play any two broadway from the last 2 positions, raise if someone limped in front of you. KJ is the nuts on a Kxx or Jxx flop vs limp/callers, as long as they're c/cing down.

3) If it's a lose player who won't fold, don't try. You make money by betting TPNK, or pp less than TP because they call with crap. Or calling a couple bets with these hands if they're betting (be much more careful of this at the micros though).

Big thing. ONLY CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME. Poker's a marathon, not a sprint. I think your original plan of slowly adding ideas and expanding your hands is spot on.

LOL @ folding AQo UTG

Actually, before you get to lol'd ... you prolly notice it's not even listed...

I don't usually play it UTG, but should be added to MP

AQo in 6max is the same thing as AKo in full ring
what you're doing is folding AKo UTG in full ring

Also, AJs is about as good as AQo

Do you think it's Ironic that you've been here 3 years and you're lecturing someone who's been here 3 months but has a bigger roll?

I've resumed playing in like June or August because of UIGEA BS and the difficulty of getting my money out of poker sites that didn't allow us players anymore

I had to pay ten dollars to get 30 dollars out because of wire transfer fees :/ gay

[PlayToWin]

Do you think it's Ironic that you've been here 3 years and you're lecturing someone who's been here 3 months but has a bigger roll?

3 months? sarbox68 has posts dating back to Sep 2006.

[sarbox68]

Do you think it's Ironic that you've been here 3 years and you're lecturing someone who's been here 3 months but has a bigger roll?

3 months? sarbox68 has posts dating back to Sep 2006.

Lil' bit of both. Was playing limit when I first found FTR way back... completely new to the game. Then played FR at UB for a while. Just started with 6-max at FT about 3 months ago, with a $325 roll.