SPRs and c-bet frequency

[Fnord]

Cash game, you're on the button and make a standard opener for your game. SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is 3 cards.

Should you be more or less inclined to c-bet based on the amount of money behind?

Consider these SPRs:
o Just over half the pot
o A little more than pot
o 2x pot
o 4x pot
o 8x pot
o 20x pot
o more than 25x pot

I had a couple "Ah Ha!" moments thinking this one through.

[wufwugy]

Not enough information, I don't think this can be evaluated in isolation (yet it will be interesting to see some try), and I do not know what you mean by SPR exactly.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Not enough information, I don't think this can be evaluated in isolation (yet it will be interesting to see some try), and I do not know what you mean by SPR exactly.

SPR is stack to pot ratio. So if the pot is 10 and remainging stacks are 20 the ratio is 2 to 1. If the pot is the size of the remaining stacks it is 1 to 1.

To answer Renton's question I am not seeming to get the aha moment that he got. With no cards specified I think I would be less inclined to c-bet without a made hand with low SPR's. But at the same time if I am raising PF to manipulate a SPR of 1/2 then I have to get it in no matter what on the flop.

With an SPR of 1 I think it is possible to check/fold certain hands, but if I make a hand I am getting it in every time. If I have a pocket pair I am also showing it down every time if villain will call with worse, draw, etc.

When SPR is around 8 it depends really dependent on board texture and opponenet.

At 20 a c-bet is not very neccessary. The pot is small compared to stacks and keeping the pot small should not be a problem. Now to play a big pot we are definantly going to have to do some maneuvering to get the opponenet to stick it all in.

From all this the smaller the SPR the more likely we are to c-bet. With money all ready invested it is wise to get it all in. The problem with this is aware villains are not going to be calling opening raises that result in small SPR's with hands they are not going to be taking to the felt litely.

With large SPR there are many options and a c-bet is not always neccessary.

[bode]

obv we would like to have much more info here, but based on this info alone...

i feel like i may be spewing too much w/ c-bets recently so tell me if im way off here.

Cash game, you're on the button and make a standard opener for your game. SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is 3 cards.

Should you be more or less inclined to c-bet based on the amount of money behind?

Consider these SPRs:
o Just over half the pot - shove any peice
o A little more than pot - shove most peices
o 2x pot - much less than normal
o 4x pot - little less than normal
o 8x pot - normal 60ish%
o 20x pot - normal 60ish%
o more than 25x pot - normal 60ish%

I had a couple "Ah Ha!" moments thinking this one through.

i say "normal 60ish%" because whether or not i c-bet 95% of flops or 25% of flops is based way more on villains tendencies than the pot size.

[euphoricism]

If my stack is 2x pot on the flop, I'm all in with almost ATC, particularly if I was the PFR'r and the pot is heads up. This spot is practically free money, and is one of the best parts of shortstacking.

Example: I have a 20bb stack. Raise 4bb get called. 8bb pot. I have 16bb left.

% villain calls on the left, % we win across the top. EV in BBs.

[Fnord]

If my stack is 2x pot on the flop, I'm all in with almost ATC

Very interesting, my gut reaction was that at around 2x pot pushing ATC starts to get punished by a good calling range. Great post!

My answer:
With up to pot behind you should be running 90%+ c-bet (check sometimes for mix up and to not make it too obvious what you're doing.) The real counter to your flop aggression is for the blinds to stop'n'go to take the play away from you. Good tourney players are well aware of the position value reversal here.

At some number (I thought it was 2x pot, probably more like 3-4x pot), running a balanced c-bet strategy is the way to go because you can get punished by an aware player shoving back at you (big assumption.)

Once a really lot of money is behind things change again.

Lets consider the universe of possible c-bet spots and rank them by EV. The top few % are pure value bets. Then we get into good spots and frequencies to bluff. As our % increases we then move into a big broad region of neutral EV into slightly -EV bets as Shania kicks in to give our flop aggression more value for our best hands (assuming an aware opponent, online in 200NL and lower we can debate this.) Keep adding and you get into spew, or do you?

Open Question: How big of a mistake is it to c-bet too much?

Which gets me to my final gee whiz momement. Running a very high c-bet % may have the same effect as doing stuff like straddling. It makes the game play bigger in spots you're doing it. Hence, with deep money and superior hand reading skills (thus making vastly better decisions with deep money than your opponents), all those neutral EV and small -EV bets could put us in a position to make it up in value on bigger streets.

[minSim]

Isn't that last sentence one of the reasons semi-bluffing is so profitable and more or less what people usually mean when they say "raise to build a pot for when you hit"

[Fnord]

Pretty much, since each bet that goes into the pot raises the effective stakes of the next bet until we run out of money to bet with. Hence it can be worth it to bet with no edge or the slight worst of it just to raise the stakes. . This is partiuclarly true if your opponent doesn't raise very often (crushing loose/passive players with bet, bet, bet lines.)

[jyms]

I just got the book and have started entertaining these thoughts. I don't really have any idea's on SPR's yet since I am still struggling with the concept and applying it. One thing I have been watching is not C-betting as much with draws to the nuts in high SPR situations, since so many think that min raising, C/minRing, is how they are supposed to play the flop (They almost seem to do it automatically now)and it makes the draw get expensive on the turn at UB (betpot button) and can get me into tougher spots.

It will be great to get more conversation around them.

[jyms]

The whole concept of SPR's have also caused me to rethink the huge percentage of preflop raising expected of us, with the amount of short stacks playing the games. (and by short I mean <30BB's)

[thizzSantaCruz]

The whole concept of SPR's have also caused me to rethink the huge percentage of preflop raising expected of us, with the amount of short stacks playing the games. (and by short I mean <30BB's)

If a shortstack has position on you I think opening up a wide range preflop is definantly a mistake. Our fold equity diminishes in post flop play and basically destroys the reason we open a wide range.

[aka_red]

i just read this whle thing and it seems what you guys are ar talking about is some pretty in depth stuff, however i had a hard time understanding what you guys were saying. can i get a translation or some meaning of things like Cbet minring and other stuff

[Miffed22001]

Cash game, you're on the button and make a standard opener for your game. SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is 3 cards.

Should you be more or less inclined to c-bet based on the amount of money behind?

Consider these SPRs:
o Just over half the pot (100%)
o A little more than pot (100%)
o 2x pot (85%)
o 4x pot (75%)
o 8x pot (75%)
o 20x pot (75%)
o more than 25x pot (75%)

I had a couple "Ah Ha!" moments thinking this one through.

Ok so my basic thinking is that if we have fold equity i.e were committed to any flop after raising preflop then its an easy c-bet.
Also, if we have lots behind in relation to the pot i guess we also should c-bet lots because that gives us the best option to getting all the money in quickly. Also, our hand is super easy to play if we have lots of money behind and we bet the flop right?
So that leaves situations when we have neither large nor small amounts left behind relative to the pot. I think we c-bet less because if we bet if makes it difficult to pot control, specifically im thinking that if we bet made hands on flop we dont get away from them on later streets because we are nearly always priced into a call (does this make my ideas on checking more flops with lukewarm tp hands in position and betting turn and river good?) however it also means that we can raise later streets with our super strong hands after checking flop and our opps are committed to most decent pieces they have

so editing my first answers above we should always c-bet with lots and little behind, and trap check with made hands on flop while checking for free cards with draws ad mediocre hands utilising turn card position.

me suck yes?

[jyms]

I'm starting to really watch how these SPR's are working out. I would hazard a guess that I am definitely one that C-bets too much. Too often I am betting flops and allowing the others to get it in too easy(i.e: the aggressor). Betting your draws make sense in a bubble, but with shorter/larger stacks in play (lots of non 100BB stacks) Helping TP type hands get closer to commitment may be my big leak. I think my whole preflop/flop play needs an overhaul. I need to condition myself to thinking SPR's preflop. Why am I raising, What SPR would this hand prefer, and what is the expected action going to be postflop with the opener/caller/3bettor?

[Chopper]

man, i dont know about this one. this sounds like stuff meant for levels above where i play. i think at low/micro stakes you still need to be a cbetting monkey. cbetting being..."when you miss." too many people keep thinking betting the flop when you connect is a cbet, too. obv, its not. when playing lower, i bet flops like crazy...cbetting weak/tights and value betting call stations. the frequency of the cbet into the w/t's makes my v/b's look like cbets to the passives. no one knows which is which. when they start c/r'ing me, i go to v/bing only for a bit until that starts to fold off the field, and switch back. but, thats me.

using "cbet" as when you miss ONLY, i think with 1:1 or less, you need to chill on cbetting, and make it 75/25 value betting because you are committing yourself (again this is based on micro limits). in the 2:1/4:1 range, you should be a cbetting monkey because you have room to bet scare cards on turn, etc. but, again, after 4:1, you need to chill on cbetting again because c/c, c/c, c/r is too easy to pull on you because of the implieds you have left on the flop. if you are showing interest, and carry 150 bb+, i'm inclined to let you spew away with my bigger flops, as long as i have a history on you 2 barreling. maybe thats sillyness, but i think the deeper you are, the more pointless cbetting is. who cares if you missed a flop? why bloat a pot with air when your villain liked his hand enough to c/c?

[thizzSantaCruz]

man, i dont know about this one. this sounds like stuff meant for levels above where i play. i think at low/micro stakes you still need to be a cbetting monkey. cbetting being..."when you miss." too many people keep thinking betting the flop when you connect is a cbet, too. obv, its not. when playing lower, i bet flops like crazy...cbetting weak/tights and value betting call stations. the frequency of the cbet into the w/t's makes my v/b's look like cbets to the passives. no one knows which is which. when they start c/r'ing me, i go to v/bing only for a bit until that starts to fold off the field, and switch back. but, thats me.

using "cbet" as when you miss ONLY, i think with 1:1 or less, you need to chill on cbetting, and make it 75/25 value betting because you are committing yourself (again this is based on micro limits). in the 2:1/4:1 range, you should be a cbetting monkey because you have room to bet scare cards on turn, etc. but, again, after 4:1, you need to chill on cbetting again because c/c, c/c, c/r is too easy to pull on you because of the implieds you have left on the flop. if you are showing interest, and carry 150 bb+, i'm inclined to let you spew away with my bigger flops, as long as i have a history on you 2 barreling. maybe thats sillyness, but i think the deeper you are, the more pointless cbetting is. who cares if you missed a flop? why bloat a pot with air when your villain liked his hand enough to c/c?

you shouldn't base the % of times you cbet on the % of times you value bet. you should base it on opponenet post flop tendancies and flop texture. c-bets allow us to steal pots and inflate pot size when we have a hand. c-betting deep is pretty standard if the conditions are right, and they are more often then they aren't.

[Robb]

you shouldn't base the % of times you cbet on the % of times you value bet. you should base it on opponenet post flop tendancies and flop texture. c-bets allow us to steal pots and inflate pot size when we have a hand. c-betting deep is pretty standard if the conditions are right, and they are more often then they aren't.

I agree with Cruz and Chopper. I think at my level, c-betting like 90% of the time when I was the preflop aggressor is about right, but maybe a bit on the conservative side.

[Technooo]

Hmm...

so to apply this to tournament play, when duking it with two big stacks in a tight situation, you should play your strong hands aggressively on the flop and turn for value, and then play good drawing hands like flush+gutshot or oestraight+2flush or 30%draw+overcards or better the same way to build a pot for when you hit and to get value from folding. This also prevents opp from drawing on you or chipping away at you with med PPs that didn't set up, and can offer some mistakes as well as well as increasing your value from an aggressive image.

[Chopper]

i'm not into "pot building on the come" in tourneys because, often times, you arent deep enough to take the chance online. sure, if you hit a strong combo, you go all the way, but you are also playing that combo for FE on the flop.

and, always play your strong hands aggressively.

[SushiWizard]

The whole concept of SPR's have also caused me to rethink the huge percentage of preflop raising expected of us, with the amount of short stacks playing the games. (and by short I mean <30BB's)

Thats the exact problem I was trying to discuss before. I play live 1/2 $60max buy-in. After a pf raise the SPR's are usually really really low. People get it in routinely with very marginal holdings, so trying to play draws or using the pf raise/c-bet line becomes very difficult and FRUSTRATING!

[benny999]

If my stack is 2x pot on the flop, I'm all in with almost ATC, particularly if I was the PFR'r and the pot is heads up. This spot is practically free money, and is one of the best parts of shortstacking.

Example: I have a 20bb stack. Raise 4bb get called. 8bb pot. I have 16bb left.

% villain calls on the left, % we win across the top. EV in BBs.

damn, that's gold info! how did you calculated the ev in the chart?