new general numbers?

[Chopper]

is there something to this?

i am noticing the TAG-regs at FTR carry numbers like 15/7 and 17/9 for full ring games. i am not noticing anything like 20/10, or 22/11 often anymore. i wonder if thats because they play higher limits, and, therefore need to tighten up? or because the game has tightened up a smidge due to lack of american super-fishies at night?

i'm sorry, but anything below 17/9 is super boring...even with 6-8 tables open.

opinions as to why this is?

[jyms]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...095&highlight=

[Clar17y]

I misread post, so i'll try posting again on topic... lol

I would like to know too, if this is for any particular reason. Is it -EV to raise in late position with a marginal hand against the blinds or a few limpers and the blinds?
Because with all these situations i find myself running 22/10 or so.

Yet i see a lot of people on PokerStars at my limits (0.10/0.25) running 15/7 or there abouts and generally TPA but making profit.
Is this the best strategy for low limit?

Clar

[Chopper]

i cant say for sure, and i havent read jyms' link yet, but...

TPA's have always given me the most trouble. when i was winning at 25NL, i ran TPA, as well, but my numbers were like 20/7/1.75...they have since changed...and i think i am slowly (through variance and overplaying hands) adjusting them back to where they were.

at 10NL, you can run 23/13/3 and smash the game for over 10PTBB/100 quite easily, and you can raise anything in late position that has any potential whatsoever for profit. i, too, seem to find that 25NL wont let me do that stuff. and mostly, i think its because they dont pay off the river like the donkeys at 10NL will.

now, a good LAG will argue with me to the death that you beat the TPAs with tons of aggression...my tolerance for variance just cant handle trying that.

i dont necessarily think its -EV, but it is without good post flop play. and at 25NL people bet out with TP and simultaneously take away your odds to chase with your "marginal" that you raised pf with. again, the donkeys at 10NL will let you do it all day long with both pot and implied odds...because they pay off the river.

[sarbox68]

I read Trainer's link... Sauce's guide to beating NLH 6max. It comes with the caveat that it's really applicable to TAG & LAG at $100NL+.

I'm at $10NL, trying to get used to 6max. Is there an equivalent to this for someone like me? I've used Renton's for FR and trying to figure out how to adapt to the need for more aggression/ increased 3-betting etc. at SH.

[sarbox68]

oh... btw... I have a real hard time 3-betting PF... that's what really caught my eye reading Sauce...

[Chopper]

at 1oNL, and maybe at 25NL, 3betting isnt a priority, imo. i dont have an easy time with 25, so take that for what its worth, but i beat 10NL 6max over 25k hands at over a 10.

basic fr play will beat both at 10NL. just focus on playing the top 1/4 of starting hands, and dont call raises pf w/o strength. believe the aggression post flop, most times, and only semi bluff nut draws with 8+ outs (play those like TPTK), and you'll turn out just fine.

25NL, i am still adjusting to; hence, the OP.

[pgil]

I run looser than 17/9 on average at FR, although I am not really what you would consider a reg. Some tables will let you get away with much looser, others won't.

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on pokertracker numbers, both yours and your opps.

[Chopper]

I run looser than 17/9 on average at FR, although I am not really what you would consider a reg. Some tables will let you get away with much looser, others won't.

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on PokerTracker numbers, both yours and your opps.

prolly so, but its a way that has worked for me for a long time.

i tested something tonight. i played 15/7 at 25 fr and was up 4.5/100 over 1100 hands and felt very cold-decked. no calling raises w/o very strong cards, open raising with as much as i could, but not in ep, mp1-2. i dont like the way it feels.

i went down to 10 (mentally a stomping ground) and ran 24/10 over 300 hands, and was down a full buy-in. but, i felt so much better. i could tell the others couldnt read me. i just wasnt getting the cards to play too far post flop. still folded to a lot of aggression, but raised with a much wider range pf, and cbet some, and c/red some, and bluffed once on a scare card.

i could tell the others werent "making moves" or "playing back," as at 24/10 youre not much of a table bully. my bet sizes were a bit bigger, and i didnt really feel the need to 2 barrel much, if at all. if i had it i bet it. if i hit TP and bet out, and got called, i needed to be a little more certain of my hand before firing the second barrel.

some of that is missing in my move up to 25. i feel if i can put it back in (w/o feeling like a pussy), i can start taking control of the level again. maybe i can get back to solid TAG-light poker.

so far, my "funk" has been mostly card/situation related with a good bit of overplay post flop, and being too eager to go for stacks when these guys arent any smarter. maybe 25 is a bit tighter, but i doubt its smarter.

[sejje]

oh... btw... I have a real hard time 3-betting PF... that's what really caught my eye reading Sauce...

I used to be that way. For me, I think I was mentally committing my stack almost every time I 3-bet, or at least I expected to win.

In many of sauce's examples, you're going to 3-bet really light and not be able to showdown pretty frequently. Just remind yourself you're winning money simply by three-betting, not by winning huge pots after you 3bet.

I really think there's a lot of guys that should be three-bet with half or more of all playable hands.

[wouterpoker]

hmm, I agree with the first part of the OP. however, I do not think 15/7 or 17/9 is more profitable than 20/10. I run 23/12/3 over 140000 hands and i think most of my winnings come from the fact that i can isolate fish better than the ' regulars'. the regulars will wait for aces or kings while i stack the fish with a two pair flop after a K8s button raise.

Side note: this is all on partypoker, and i think the fish amount is higher there than on any other site. so don't know if this is valid for other sites too

[Chopper]

i've been playing on stars for, essentially, my entire career. so, i am apparently coming from games that are a bit tougher than all but FTP...from what i've been hearing lately. i have never had a problem killing stars until this month. in fact, i've done much better there than at party, the pokerrooms, absolute, the cryptos, ub, and FTP. but, i have noticed the pre-flop percentages really SUCK for the volume. what gives?

last couple weeks i've been elsewhere and have noticed some fish with regularity. maybe its all in the luck/matchups, but it certainly feels better when TPTK has a passive 2nd pair or weaker kicker call all the way down. thats the way the dummies used to play, and its much easier to make a little money.

fwiw, i've opened back up to 21/10 ish and am turning the corner again. its just more fun to raise pf and cbet. it sets up a lot more action on your bigger hands, imo. i'm sure, however, theres a LAG out there that would call me a pussy rock, even at those numbers...

[spoonitnow]

are we talking about fr or 6max or wtf

[euphoricism]

The general rule is that as your opponents get tighter, you have to get tighter as well. This becomes cyclical. As you get tighter, they get tighter, as they get tighter you get tighter, until everyones nutcamping nits only playing AA/KK.

At some point in that cycle, once youre able to easily define your opponents hand, it becomes very profitable to play weaker cards against them, namely hands like suited connectors (NOT KQo) because you're going to either flop hard and suck out on villains obvious AA, or youre going to fold the flop and they're not going to make much.

I believe this is mentioned somewhere in NLT&P.

[Chopper]

makes sense to me. but, damn does it get boring to nutcamp. thank god for 6max donkeys.

are we talking about fr or 6max or wtf

actually, i started talking about fr, but i noticed my numbers are pretty much the same from one to the other. i know they arent supposed to be, but they are. and in 6max, i'm still one of the tighter ones. however, at fr, i am definitely one of the active ones. there seems to be quite a difference.

in a fr game, you rarely see a K6 call a pfr and take it to the river, calling 3 value bets along the way with his TP...only to see AK slide the chips his way. just a year ago, that still seemed pretty common.

[spoonitnow]

I run 14/10 at full ring. I think as long as your VP$P is under 20 and your PFR is higher than 8 you should be alright, but I think when I started playing about 15/10 was considered near-optimal.

[Chopper]

I run 14/10 at full ring. I think as long as your VP$P is under 20 and your PFR is higher than 8 you should be alright, but I think when I started playing about 15/10 was considered near-optimal.

dont take this the wrong way, i'm just curious, but...

how long have you been playing? and...

how do you explain the "good" aggros? their ranges are much wider than 15/10. heck, they are wider than 20/10.

[spoonitnow]

I run 14/10 at full ring. I think as long as your VP$P is under 20 and your PFR is higher than 8 you should be alright, but I think when I started playing about 15/10 was considered near-optimal.

dont take this the wrong way, i'm just curious, but...

how long have you been playing? and...

how do you explain the "good" aggros? their ranges are much wider than 15/10. heck, they are wider than 20/10.

I've been playing poker for a couple of years with frequent breaks of 2-5 months.

At full ring in NLHE, being looser than 20/10 all of the time is -EV without a lot of table selection, imo.

I'm not too concerned with "good aggros" or "good passives" or whatever style you could mention. I try to base my play around the other people at the tables I'm on. My VP$P is a little bit smaller than it would be if I was playing less tables because when I 12-table I end up folding in some marginal situations, but overall I still think I run about right for a solid NLHE FR game at low stakes.

[Chopper]

i agree that marginal situations are to be avoided at all costs.

and, the reason i asked was i am wondering if the "tighter" range maximizes winnings by making it even easier to avoid said marginal situations. i wont pretend to know where "too tight" begins, though.

running 20/10 is much more fun, imo, because i only 6 table, and only started that recently, and need to be in a hand fairly often to keep the boredom away.

if i were to tighten the screws up to 15/10, i wonder what the rate would jump to, or if it would.

[spoonitnow]

For me, it's not so much about avoiding marginal situations as it is that I'll be more likely to make mistakes while 12-tabling that I wouldn't make while playing less tables.