being bet into when you're pf aggressor. autoraise?

[pokerroomace]

If you're the preflop aggressor in position HU and the flop comes something like Js5s2o and your opponent leads into you - what do you make of it?

in general, I see it as a big sign of weakness and will usually raise their bet no matter what cards I'm holding.
if they have a big hand against me they'll go for a checkraise or a checkcall. i'm an aggressive player and am likely to cbet the flop when i'm pf agg.
so why are they leading into me? very, very rarely do they have a great hand. usually they have TP with an OK kicker and they're betting because they want to find out where they're at. if they get raised they'll know where they're at and they'll fold.
if they flopped a draw, they might lead into me as well, trying to see a free card or take the pot down now. again, a raise is in order.
rarely will they lead into you with a great hand.

obviously once a player knows that you're going to raise him if he leads into you then he'll start betting into you with sets.
but for unknowing players - the oop lead into the pf agg is usually a sign of weakness.

what do others think about this???

[bigslikk]

I like this post; it sounds right. Yeah if opponents are calling lots of raises OOP lmao. But yeah they do. And you're right- their bets are usually probe or block bets- raising sounds good.

However I wouldnt autoraise (like missed AK) against an idiot calling station. MIght as well just call with odds (if they're there)

Yeah this fear that their weak bet is a ploy (weak bet / raise) is foolish... sometimes it is but the vast majority it isn't.

A rule I've developed for myself to counteract my passive-tending play is this: unless they give evidence they have a good hand, assume they don't.

[pokerroomace]

i didn't mean autobet any opponent. i was exaggerating a little.

but in general, is raising a good idea?

and what happens when you play at higher stakes with better players? is an oop bet equally likely to be weakness as strength?

[Miffed22001]

lol i hit raise here 75% of the time and fold the rest.
i hate calling on the flop without a reason after being the pf aggressor.

[gingerwizard]

I find there are two kinds of players who lead at the lower stakes OOP when not the aggressor.

1. The autobettor: Leads whenever he has the chance to on flops. This read takes about 1 or 2 orbits to pick up and if I have it I'll raise to see how they react. (Gold when you can note that he folds to aggression.) These guys want to scare people away from pots, and don't think too much unless they have to make a decision for a lot of money. You can win lots of slightly inflated pots from these guys.

2. The clever opponent: Leads with monsters to inflate the pot early, hoping you have a high pair, a good TPTK or won't let pretty missed preflop hands go. It goes like this: You raise pf with AKs and small blind calls. Flop is KQ7 and he bets 3/4+ of the pot. You're like "WTF is that bet supposed to mean" You raise and he either flat calls and pushes turn, or pushes over your flop raise. Now unless you're seasoned (and I'm not as I fell for this only last night) its bloody tough to lay this down so early in a hand, because you just can't imagine any donk playing a set or top 2 pair that fast. You convince yourself they are pulling a big semibluff or whatever and call and sure enough they show you minimum KQ and you kick yourself. This play works even better if you raised AA and the flop is 965 and villain hits a set.

I'm going to start doing it more with monsters (and the odd draw thrown in for balance) because I really like the premise behind it.

Harder to spot the 2nd type of player because these situations don't come up too often, but i'm often wary of seemingly tight players sitting on large stacks.

Amazing what you start to spot when you TURN OFF YOUR HUD!

[pokerroomace]

I find there are two kinds of players who lead at the lower stakes OOP when not the aggressor.

1. The autobettor: Leads whenever he has the chance to on flops. This read takes about 1 or 2 orbits to pick up and if I have it I'll raise to see how they react. (Gold when you can note that he folds to aggression.) These guys want to scare people away from pots, and don't think too much unless they have to make a decision for a lot of money. You can win lots of slightly inflated pots from these guys.

2. The clever opponent: Leads with monsters to inflate the pot early, hoping you have a high pair, a good TPTK or won't let pretty missed preflop hands go. It goes like this: You raise pf with AKs and small blind calls. Flop is KQ7 and he bets 3/4+ of the pot. You're like "WTF is that bet supposed to mean" You raise and he either flat calls and pushes turn, or pushes over your flop raise. Now unless you're seasoned (and I'm not as I fell for this only last night) its bloody tough to lay this down so early in a hand, because you just can't imagine any donk playing a set or top 2 pair that fast. You convince yourself they are pulling a big semibluff or whatever and call and sure enough they show you minimum KQ and you kick yourself. This play works even better if you raised AA and the flop is 965 and villain hits a set.

I'm going to start doing it more with monsters (and the odd draw thrown in for balance) because I really like the premise behind it.

Harder to spot the 2nd type of player because these situations don't come up too often, but i'm often wary of seemingly tight players sitting on large stacks.

Amazing what you start to spot when you TURN OFF YOUR HUD!

i don't agree with a lot of this and i can't remember the last time i saw someone played a hand either of the 2 ways you described above.

btw, if i see that i'm up against a good, solid player - i'm definitely not going to autoraise. i'll probably fold.
with a hand like AK with TPTK - i'm definitely not stacking off against a solid, tight opponent if he leads into me when i'm the aggressor.

also, i think it is a leak to bet too much oop. i've heard that gus hansen bets oop a lot. there is a post on 2p2 where one of the players lists he leaks and that's one of them (btw, the player posting his leaks is a top online player).

[thizzSantaCruz]

I have been encountering this a lot recently in micro stakes. It is kind of frutrating to repeatedly get donked into and have them call my raise and lead the turn again.

[pokerroomace]

I have been encountering this a lot recently in micro stakes. It is kind of frutrating to repeatedly get donked into and have them call my raise and lead the turn again.

at microstakes they play crazy. the betting makes no sense at all.
betting the flop, the calling a raise and then betting the turn makes no sense at all. maybe at high stakes it would make sense.
some microstakes players are just mindless.

[zenbitz]

At small stakes (50NL 6m) I rarely raise a flop donk with just overs. This probably means that you should donk into me alot.

Depends on the flop texture though. If it's all low, then I assume villian has some kind of pair - and since low stakes 6m folks never fold, I usually give up. If the bet is exceptionally weak, and I have no draw, I will raise, or if I have some other read that he donks alot or bets for info.

But blind, I typically fold. I think I am more like 25-75 than Miffed's 75-25. And I sometimes just call instead of raise.