Pre-flop No Limit Texas Holdem Hand Rankings - Groups 3 to 4

[pokerroomace]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_...ps_3_to_4.html

Group 3: AQ 99 ATs KJs QJs KTs
...
I will play all Group 3 hands from all positions.

Is this good advice? playing the bottom 4 hands in this group: "ATs KJs QJs KTs" seems a bit weak to me

is there a post somewhere that discusses this?
thanks

[Chopper]

just my opinion, but i would think you should play more than power hands, especially in ep, to insure your premiums receive action.

if you run 15/6, or even less, i will not play with you unless i have a pp, maybe AK. when i hit my baby set, then i float on you until you give me your stack, as you most likely cannot detect a floater until its too late...and even then you hold overpairs in too high a regard.

however, if you open up a bit, to say 20/9, i will payoff your premiums more often out of disbelief, knowing you can raise it up with KTs from ep. i will inevitably think my KQ is good to your AK/AQ, and then its MY stack that goes bye-bye.

dont take this too literally, as this is a general answer to a question that we can all overanalyze to death with specifics.

[andy-akb]

just my opinion, but i would think you should play more than power hands, especially in ep, to insure your premiums receive action.

if you run 15/6, or even less, i will not play with you unless i have a pp, maybe AK. when i hit my baby set, then i float on you until you give me your stack, as you most likely cannot detect a floater until its too late...and even then you hold overpairs in too high a regard.

however, if you open up a bit, to say 20/9, i will payoff your premiums more often out of disbelief, knowing you can raise it up with KTs from ep. i will inevitably think my KQ is good to your AK/AQ, and then its MY stack that goes bye-bye.

dont take this too literally, as this is a general answer to a question that we can all overanalyze to death with specifics.

I run at around 24/20 or so and I never raised KTs in EP in my last 10k hands, a 20/9 is almost never going to be raising something like that in any position as thats a very passive game.

To the OP: I do not like the advice primarily because of the line "from all positions." ATs and 99 are the only hands I am playing from any position, the others will be raised in EP on occassion, but not too often. Personally, I really dont like grouping hands in that way, it is just too simple of an approach. Try raising SCs in EP, try raising those hands as well, just try stuff out and then see how it works. Sometimes its hard to tell just by feel, but with PT you can go back over your hands in each position and see what is making money and what isnt.

So basically what Im saying is this, try it out yourself and see whether or not it works for your game. If it does, stick with it, if it doesnt, then stop.

[pokerroomace]

thanks for the replies.

btw, i tried out raising SCs from early position at the $25NL tables on pokerroom. and it definitely doesn't work. there is no such thing as position at the lower stakes. at the higher stakes i'm sure players will be keeping track of your stats and will give your ep raises way more respect so mixing it up will help. but at the low stakes i think it's -EV.

also, wouldn't you be better off raising hands like 67s rather than QJs or KTs from ep? you won't be in a strong position when you hit TP on the flop with QJs. a lot of the hands calling your raise will have you dominated. but when you raise with 67s you won't be dominated.

[Chopper]

i didnt read the link, but arent these FR groupings, and Andy, dont you play 6max?

in a 6max game, i will raise KTs UTG if i decide to play the hand because i will not be caught dead open-limping, unless it's an unusually passive game pf.

and in a FR game, how do you survive playing a 20% pfr? i am curious (not trying to be offensive), as i am sure you get action, but how do you determine when you are dominated because if you raise 20% of your hands, i am sure you are dommed quite often.

[andy-akb]

i didnt read the link, but arent these FR groupings, and Andy, dont you play 6max?

in a 6max game, i will raise KTs UTG if i decide to play the hand because i will not be caught dead open-limping, unless it's an unusually passive game pf.

and in a FR game, how do you survive playing a 20% pfr? i am curious (not trying to be offensive), as i am sure you get action, but how do you determine when you are dominated because if you raise 20% of your hands, i am sure you are dommed quite often.

Fuck, my bad I thought this was more of a general as opposed to FR specific. And even though I dont play FR, Ill answer your question about sort of knowing where im at in the hand. I play the bulk of my hands in LP and because of this my stats are pretty deceiving. UTG I think Im something like 15/15 whereas on the button Im closer to 40+/35ish so while I am playing some easily dominated hands, I am doing so in position and with good hand reading and pot control you can overcome that.

[pokerroomace]

i didnt read the link, but arent these FR groupings, and Andy, dont you play 6max?

in a 6max game, i will raise KTs UTG if i decide to play the hand because i will not be caught dead open-limping, unless it's an unusually passive game pf.

and in a FR game, how do you survive playing a 20% pfr? i am curious (not trying to be offensive), as i am sure you get action, but how do you determine when you are dominated because if you raise 20% of your hands, i am sure you are dommed quite often.

Fuck, my bad I thought this was more of a general as opposed to FR specific. And even though I dont play FR, Ill answer your question about sort of knowing where im at in the hand. I play the bulk of my hands in LP and because of this my stats are pretty deceiving. UTG I think Im something like 15/15 whereas on the button Im closer to 40+/35ish so while I am playing some easily dominated hands, I am doing so in position and with good hand reading and pot control you can overcome that.

but when you open utg with QJs you don't have the benefits of the button. isn't it a bit dangerous opening utg with QJs. wouldn't it be better to open UTG with 67s?

[andy-akb]

i didnt read the link, but arent these FR groupings, and Andy, dont you play 6max?

in a 6max game, i will raise KTs UTG if i decide to play the hand because i will not be caught dead open-limping, unless it's an unusually passive game pf.

and in a FR game, how do you survive playing a 20% pfr? i am curious (not trying to be offensive), as i am sure you get action, but how do you determine when you are dominated because if you raise 20% of your hands, i am sure you are dommed quite often.

Fuck, my bad I thought this was more of a general as opposed to FR specific. And even though I dont play FR, Ill answer your question about sort of knowing where im at in the hand. I play the bulk of my hands in LP and because of this my stats are pretty deceiving. UTG I think Im something like 15/15 whereas on the button Im closer to 40+/35ish so while I am playing some easily dominated hands, I am doing so in position and with good hand reading and pot control you can overcome that.

but when you open utg with QJs you don't have the benefits of the button. isn't it a bit dangerous opening utg with QJs. wouldn't it be better to open UTG with 67s?

I used to open UTG with QJs but I dont anymore, and yes, I would rather open with 76s. My UTG range is something like this:
100% of the time Im opening 22+, AJo+,KQs+
and then maybe 40-60% of the time Im opening Axs+ and SCs

[pokerroomace]

i didnt read the link, but arent these FR groupings, and Andy, dont you play 6max?

in a 6max game, i will raise KTs UTG if i decide to play the hand because i will not be caught dead open-limping, unless it's an unusually passive game pf.

and in a FR game, how do you survive playing a 20% pfr? i am curious (not trying to be offensive), as i am sure you get action, but how do you determine when you are dominated because if you raise 20% of your hands, i am sure you are dommed quite often.

Fuck, my bad I thought this was more of a general as opposed to FR specific. And even though I dont play FR, Ill answer your question about sort of knowing where im at in the hand. I play the bulk of my hands in LP and because of this my stats are pretty deceiving. UTG I think Im something like 15/15 whereas on the button Im closer to 40+/35ish so while I am playing some easily dominated hands, I am doing so in position and with good hand reading and pot control you can overcome that.

but when you open utg with QJs you don't have the benefits of the button. isn't it a bit dangerous opening utg with QJs. wouldn't it be better to open UTG with 67s?

I used to open UTG with QJs but I dont anymore, and yes, I would rather open with 76s. My UTG range is something like this:
100% of the time Im opening 22+, AJo+,KQs+
and then maybe 40-60% of the time Im opening Axs+ and SCs

really? that's quite a lot of hands. you are talking about FR right? and $100NL+ stakes?
and when you say open - does that mean raise or limp?

[Fnord]

I used to open UTG with QJs but I dont anymore, and yes, I would rather open with 76s.

I think this is backwards for NL100 & NL200 6 max and my results reflect this.

[andy-akb]

I used to open UTG with QJs but I dont anymore, and yes, I would rather open with 76s.

I think this is backwards for NL100 & NL200 6 max and my results reflect this.

I dont really have enough hands to know for sure, but over the 25k hands or so I have in my december database I noticed I seemed to be losing with hands like QJs or KJo, etc. and so I took them out of my range. I have also started raising a certain percentage of the time in EP with SCs and Axs type hands and have found it to be pretty effective. However, as I said before I really dont have near enough hands to know for sure what is profitable and what is not, but FWIW it _seems_ to be working

[Fnord]

The problem with 76s in a somewhat aggressive + distrustful game with thinking players is that it will rarely make a lukewarm hand that expects to win showdown. It almost forces you to play chicken. However, Axs doesn't have this problem and has another added benefit of rarely missing value when it hits a flush.

[andy-akb]

The problem with 76s in a somewhat aggressive + distrustful game with thinking players is that it will rarely make a lukewarm hand that expects to win showdown. It almost forces you to play chicken. However, Axs doesn't have this problem and has another added benefit of rarely missing value when it hits a flush.

When it makes a flush or a straight those are only lukewarm? I would say that QJs or a similar hand will very often make a luke warm hand that is often second best and as we are OOP we cant really control the pot size very well. Yes, QJs has the same flush potential and will [obviously] be outflushed less, but I still feel like the reverse implied odds of playing it for pair value make it a "worse" hand to play in EP than a SC

[Fnord]

When it makes a flush or a straight those are only lukewarm?

Hold'em is generally a game of pairs. Straights and flushes aren't common.

There are two ways to win a poker hand, showdown a better hand or get the other guy to fold. 78s is going to force you to fire again or give-up at the end rather than checking behind some showdown value in hopes of being good (with the added bonus online of getting to see the other guy's hand.)

Axs' are great because you have some suck-out power with the Ace and a wee bit of showdown value unimproved.

[andy-akb]

When it makes a flush or a straight those are only lukewarm?

Hold'em is generally a game of pairs. Straights and flushes aren't common.

Right, you mentioned _rarely_ in your post and I thought you meant the rare times you make a straight or a flush. If that isnt wht you meant, what are the rare luke warm hands?

There are two ways to win a poker hand, showdown a better hand or get the other guy to fold. 78s is going to force you to fire again or give-up at the end rather than checking behind some showdown value in hopes of being good (with the added bonus online of getting to see the other guy's hand.)

Axs' are great because you have some suck-out power with the Ace and a wee bit of showdown value unimproved.

It will be very rare that I build a big pot without being confident in my hand when I hold a SC; however, with a hand like QJ that isnt the case as we are often building pots without knowing clearly where we are at and often times holding a 2nd best hand. Do you think it is profitable to raise SCs at small stakes [i.e. 100 and 200nl]? Do you yourself raise with hands like QJx?