This is horrible right vs Renton

[IowaSkinsFan]

Renton is playing extra LAGG since Irish, me and Jager are playing at this table. He's been threebetting very light.

PokerStars Game #7418405247: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/12 - 21:58:29 (ET)
Table 'Sisyphus' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Jager244 ($153.30 in chips)
Seat 2: dan_haas ($99.25 in chips)
Seat 3: KA234 ($144.30 in chips)
Seat 4: Renton555 ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: NorthenIce ($73.30 in chips)
Seat 6: redgrape ($100.45 in chips)
KA234: posts small blind $0.50
Renton555: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [3c 3h]
NorthenIce: folds
NorthenIce said, "I GOT TO GO..........GOOD LUCK RED*******"
redgrape: raises $3 to $4
Jager244: folds
dan_haas: folds
KA234: folds
Renton555: raises $10 to $14
redgrape: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [9c 5s 9s]
Renton555: bets $23
redgrape: calls $23
*** TURN *** [9c 5s 9s] [8h]
Renton555: bets $63 and is all-in
redgrape: calls $63

[Fnord]

If you think he's FoS, are we better served calling the flop or pushing?

[bode]

if you do think he is FoS, then pushing the flop is much better imo

[gabe]

if he has AK, he still has 12 outs...really bad call

[IowaSkinsFan]

Wait don't i let him hang himself if I think he is FOS?

[gabe]

if hes bluffing he is not that far behind, and he has a real hand some of the time too

[IowaSkinsFan]

if he has AK, he still has 12 outs...really bad call

yeah... that's something I retardly didn't take into consideration.

[Jager]

unless you spike a 3...

[Genitruc]

I don't hate it

[Genitruc]

doesn t Rent's missed ak only have 9 outs going into turn?

edit : ooh.... now i c gg me understaking No Limit hold em...

[Lukie]

Just muck it pre.. you're hand sucks and you have no implied odds. If he's really 3-betting light but will fold to a lot of heat pre, consider 4-betting to $40 or just pushing yourself.

[elipsesjeff]

Just muck it pre.. you're hand sucks and you have no implied odds. If he's really 3-betting light but will fold to a lot of heat pre, consider 4-betting to $40 or just pushing yourself.

I was going to say this too. It's $10 to call and you're likely not going to get his stack. You should probably have $140 behind here to make the call to make up for the times you probably wont get his stack even when you do hit.

[Lukie]

if we're just playing for set, we probably need more then 200 behind, and for renton to really overvalue hands post. If we can make some marginal calldowns or take the pot away sometimes, then it's really hard to say and I'm not even going to try.

[mcatdog]

It's good to 4-bet light 3-bettors but there are a lot of hands I'd rather do it with than 33.

This is the worst-played hand that's been posted on FTR in awhile, but props for at least posting it because we all play hands horribly from time to time.

[Lukie]

First, let's assume that calling with 33 here pre is -EV (debatable for sure, but I think it's a good assumption).

Options are folding or 4-betting (either pushing or betting some other amount). If renton is truly 3-betting light here, and we have a good image so he won't get it allin without a big hand (a range of something like KK/AA or QQ+/AK), 4-betting 33 here is actually an awesome play. Hands like this (can't really call but have decent equity nonetheless--hands like 33 or A3s), are good hands to do it with. This assumes that we will also play the same way with our monster hands (eg QQ+/AK), and that those hands make up the bulk of our range. We can just push ourselves or make it like $40 straight and then obviously call a 5-bet push, which sucks, but we're committed since he will (should be) pushing AK at least.

[gabe]

i call this preflop everytime

[Numbr2intheWorld]

If he's going to play air like that, i would call everytime too. But we don't know that at all.

[IowaSkinsFan]

i call this preflop everytime

Obviously, this isn't for just set value. On what flops do you play back?

[Genitruc]

i call this preflop everytime

Obviously, this isn't for just set value. On what flops do you play back?

if you're looking for flops that don't hit you big to play back on, they don't get much better than this

[gabe]

i call this preflop everytime

Obviously, this isn't for just set value. On what flops do you play back?

thats pretty broad...theres alot more things to consider than the board

[IowaSkinsFan]

i call this preflop everytime

Obviously, this isn't for just set value. On what flops do you play back?

thats pretty broad...theres alot more things to consider than the board

I just mean what situations would u play back? Give me an example.

[gabe]

villian does something that makes me think they dont have a big pair...could be timing tells or bet sizing

[IowaSkinsFan]

villian does something that makes me think they dont have a big pair...could be timing tells or bet sizing

More specifically? Or is it just hard to think of an exact time?

[aislephive]

Yeah this is really bad, and this is definitely a fold preflop and it's not even close. You're not very far ahead of a hand like AK and you're way behind to any legiminate hand.

[IowaSkinsFan]

i call this preflop everytime

[gabe]

Yeah this is really bad, and this is definitely a fold preflop and it's not even close.

no

[Renton]

i think its a fold preflop.

First of all, Im reraising an MP raiser from oop. Lagg or not, thats gonna narrow my range significantly. Also, if i am playing lagg, you are still calling a reraise with a hand that is virtually unplayable unimproved, even from position, and you don't even have very good implied odds because of my wide range.

[aislephive]

Yeah this is really bad, and this is definitely a fold preflop and it's not even close.

no

Care to prove it? That's what I thought.

[gabe]

i wish there was a way to show in PT just the hands where i call reraises with small pairs

[b-rabbit]

i wish there was a way to show in PT just the hands where i call reraises with small pairs

YEA!!!!!

[aislephive]

i wish there was a way to show in PT just the hands where i call reraises with small pairs

That's just being results oriented, then. It's fun to call reraises with small pairs and flop sets against guys with overpairs, but so much has to go right. Also, even against somebody with a narrow range it's an -EV call preflop for say an additional 10bbs from a 4bb open raise with an initial 100bb stack.

Consider this:
----------------------

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,210,570 games 1.469 secs 2,185,547 games/sec

Board: 2c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.9510 % 18.78% 00.17% { AA }
Hand 2: 81.0490 % 80.88% 00.17% { 22 }


----

So even when we flop a set against what we figure to be an overpair, we're winning about 80% of the tme. Sometimes we get set over setted, sometimes we get all in on the flop as a big favorite and still lose, etc.

Not to mention there are times when the board comes shitty and AA-TT doesn't stack off, he could have AK and miss and fold to resistance, etc. A small pair is the worst hand to call a reraise preflop with against somebody who three bets light, since you have complete crap the majority of the time and when you do make a move you have almost no equity when called. Calling with a suited connector that has equity on a lot of different flops is much, much better.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

It's results oriented, sure. But if you have enough hands of a certain situation, those results are pretty damn valid.

[gabe]

i wish there was a way to show in PT just the hands where i call reraises with small pairs

That's just being results oriented, then.

lol yea....250k hands its probably ok to be results oriented.

the arguments you make have all been made before. i feel i have an edge on ppl postflop and calling these raises seems to work out pretty well.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

With careful analysis you'll notice that your opponent is Renton. With further analysis you'll see that he pushes all-in. In such a situation, if you give him a range of over pairs, a straight, fullhouse, quads, pair + SF draw and run the hand through RentonStove you'll see that you have 94.1% equity against his range. So, against Renton this is an insta-call. Against anyone else it's an easy fold.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Whenever you can post a few hands where u didn't hit a set but you made them fold.

[elipsesjeff]

i call this preflop everytime

Yeah, in your game sure, but in the tight passiveness that is 100 NL? People these days are less willing to stack themselves with an overpair and TPTK. I agree with Lukie here, but not with the 200 BB part.

It's not that Gabe's result oriented thinking is wrong, its that he plays an entirely different game.

[gabe]

i think you guys are overestimating the times people fold aa/kk. hit a set and c/r allin, they always think you are bluffing and clal.

[mcatdog]

First, let's assume that calling with 33 here pre is -EV (debatable for sure, but I think it's a good assumption).

Options are folding or 4-betting (either pushing or betting some other amount). If renton is truly 3-betting light here, and we have a good image so he won't get it allin without a big hand (a range of something like KK/AA or QQ+/AK), 4-betting 33 here is actually an awesome play. Hands like this (can't really call but have decent equity nonetheless--hands like 33 or A3s), are good hands to do it with. This assumes that we will also play the same way with our monster hands (eg QQ+/AK), and that those hands make up the bulk of our range. We can just push ourselves or make it like $40 straight and then obviously call a 5-bet push, which sucks, but we're committed since he will (should be) pushing AK at least.

Like this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($200)
BB ($222)
Button ($319.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5, A.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, BB raises to $24, Hero raises to $200

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'm bumping because people have disagreement with calling 33 preflop and it led to interesting arguement.

[aislephive]

There's not much left to be said. With 100bbs and you get reraised and it's 10% of your initial stack to call, there is no way you can call with a small pocket pair and be profitable postflop unless you can see people's hole cards or are god's gift to poker.

It's very, very marginal and not massively -EV, but it still is -EV no matter how you look at it. Even a 250k hand sample doesn't show a whole lot in regards to this situation. If you think you're going to get the guy off the hand on the flop whenever you want then your cards don't really matter, and I can't imagine that's even the case or close to it.

Saying "well I've stacked so many people calling reraises with small pairs" is a pretty blank statement. How often have you called and hit a set and not gotten paid? What about the times you make a move without pretty much no outs and spew off 50-60 bbs +? Are you factoring this into the equation also?

[dsaxton]

Obviously you can't play for set value alone against a player like this.

I think you also have to factor in your chances of winning without a set, how much you will win when this happens (usually very little), and how much you will lose when it doesn't (usually a lot). Without having any way of figuring out the numbers, I'm going to guess that this hand is a long-term loser in this situation, so I think you should fold preflop.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Obviously you can't play for set value alone against a player like this.

Obviously, I'm not playing for just set value, or my call is horrid. Gabe seems to think you should call 33 here everytime. I think calling 33 is a leak for me, but I think for a very good hand reader it may not be, especially with Renton's big range because of the circumstances of the game, as well as other solid big LAGG's.

[gabe]

There's not much left to be said. With 100bbs and you get reraised and it's 10% of your initial stack to call, there is no way you can call with a small pocket pair and be profitable postflop unless you can see people's hole cards or are god's gift to poker.

ill take that as a compliment

[aislephive]

There's not much left to be said. With 100bbs and you get reraised and it's 10% of your initial stack to call, there is no way you can call with a small pocket pair and be profitable postflop unless you can see people's hole cards or are god's gift to poker.

ill take that as a compliment

So where did you get this pattern mapper?

[gabe]

2 years of FTR

[Fnord]

Results of the hand posted?

[Renton]

i have AA and river is a 3

[IowaSkinsFan]

i have AA and river is a 3

PWNED btw.

[johnny_fish]

i have AA and river is a 3

Standard. Only at Pokerstars!

[gabe]

renton outplayed you

[gabe]

i have AA and river is a 3

Standard. Only at Pokerstars!

*riverstars