Roy Rounder & Texas Hold 'Em Secrets

[Warpe]

Did a forum search on this and came up with nada. So...

The following is the text of an e-mail received from Roy Rounder Communications.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Hey [Warpe],

Have you ever lost a huge pot because you
had a flush draw or straight draw and didn't
catch the card you needed?

It's happened to all of us.

And frankly, it sucks.

Because when you're on a draw, you're just
ONE CARD AWAY from raking in a ton of chips.

And you WANT to keep calling everyone else's
bets, in hopes that your card will pop out
on the turn or river.

Am I right?

Of course, what ends up happening is you
have to put a ton of your chips in the
middle... just to call everyone else's bets.

That makes you pot-committed... and if you
DON'T catch your card, you're screwed.

Now let me ask you...

Wouldn't it be WONDERFUL if every time you
were on a draw all the other players would
CHECK around?

That way you didn't have to risk any chips,
and could bet only after you KNEW for sure
whether or not you caught your card.

That sure would be nice, wouldn't it?

AND...

What if there was a way to STILL WIN THE
HAND... even if you DIDN'T catch your card?

That'd be nice too, huh?

Luckily, there IS a technique you can use to
make BOTH of these things happen.

Let me show you how...

OK, so let's say I'm at an 8-person no-limit
table and I'm sixth to act.

I'm dealt a 5-6 of diamonds.

Josh comes out firing with a $10 pre-flop
bet. Sarah and Derek both call.

Now it's on me.

I love suited connectors... especially
busting my opponents with them unexpectedly,
so I jump in and call.

The players behind me muck their cards right
away... scared to death of so much action.

The flop hits:

4d, 9s, 7d

That means I've just flopped an open-ended
straight flush draw. I couldn't have asked
for a better flop in this situation.

Unfortunately, Josh comes out firing (again)
with a no-hesitation bet of $20.

Sarah and Derek both FOLD this time...

And the action is to me.

I'm putting Josh on a high pocket pair, or
maybe A9 or A7. And he's figuring the scraps
on the board didn't help anyone, hence the
strong bet.

Which puts me in a tough situation.

Think about it... If I CALL, I might miss
my flush or straight on the turn card. Then
what? Josh will make another strong bet...
what will I do then?

And if I call to see the river and miss,
then I'll have just given Josh most of my
chips and lost a major hand.

On the other hand, I don't want to FOLD,
because I have a ton of outs and I want to
WIN this!

Now let me ask you, what would YOU do in
this situation?

Most amateur card players don't think ahead,
and they'd call Josh's $20 bet. And if they
missed on the turn, they'd call another bet
to see the river.

And if they missed on the river, they'd
probably fold, watch Josh rake in all the
chips, and wonder why they "never catch the
right cards".

Now a more skillful player would ANTICIPATE
what's about to happen... and would probably
call to see the turn, but then fold if Josh
bet again.

And of course, there are always the tight
players who would never have played the 5-6
of diamonds in the FIRST place.

So what do I do?

Remember, I'm sitting on 5-6 of diamonds.
The board reads: 4d, 9s, 7d. And Josh, who
made a strong pre-flop raise, just bet $20
after the flop.

Here's the answer...


I RAISE.

Not some wimpy raise either... I raise him
$40 more to play.

Most players would NEVER think to raise in
this situation... but here's what I've done:

1. I've TAKEN CONTROL of the hand and bought
myself a FREE CARD when it matters most.

You see, if Josh calls the $40 raise, when
the turn hits he'll CHECK to me.

(Remember what I said at the beginning of
this email?)

That means I get to see the turn and river
for a total of $40 more, which is a BARGAIN
compared to what Josh's next bet would have
cost me.

2. I'm representing possible trips.

Josh now has to wonder whether I called his
pre-flop raise with a low pocket pair and
just caught trips on the flop.

Or I could be sitting on a high pocket pair
and I'm not "phased" by the flop.

3. I've raised the stakes of the hand in MY
favor... not his. You see, if I just call
Josh's bets and then hit a 8 of diamonds on
the turn, what will happen?

Well, Josh will SEE the three diamonds and
the straight possibility, and he probably
won't make any more huge bets or call any
huge bets from me.

This way, I've raised the stakes $40, which
increases MY CHANCES at winning an even
bigger pot than if I had just called.

Make sense?

And last but not least...

4. I've given myself a way to WIN even if I
don't catch the straight or flush.

Now I get to see Josh's reaction to my $40
raise...

If I sense weakness, I may decide to BLUFF
and buy this pot if I don't catch my flush
or straight.

If I only call Josh's bets the whole way,
he would't fall for this type of bluff. But
my raise of $40 will sure get him thinking.

OKAY, BACK TO THE HAND...

Josh shuffles his chips around for a moment,
and looks back down at his cards. It turns
out he's holding an A9... so he's got top
pair with the kicker. A good hand, but not
a monster by any means.

He calls.

The next card comes out... queen of spades.

No help.

Josh checks.

THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

This is my "free card" opportunity that my
$40 raise bought.

Now I'm in complete control... and feeling
pretty good about this hand.

I can check and see the river for free. I've
still got a lot of outs here.

Or I can bet STRONG and try to scare Josh
away.

"One hundred dollars", I say, as I push a
huge stack of red chips into the middle.

True, I only have a queen high... and the
beginner card player may think this type of
play is crazy.

But then again, that's why they're called
"BEGINNERS".

Anyway...

Josh thinks for a minute and then mucks it.

I rake in a beautiful pot.

Even if Josh had called, I still had a good
number of outs. And if I missed, I could
have tried to bluff again.

Now think back to when the flop came out...

After Josh bet $20, what if I had called?
(And not raised.)

Well, here's what would have happened...

The queen would have came and Josh would've
immediately fired a huge $80 bet.

I would've had to either call the $80 to see
the river, or muck my beautiful straight
flush draw.

And THAT, my friend, is why it's CRUCIAL
that you TAKE CONTROL of the game.

This type of technique allows you to truly
DOMINATE THE TABLES and win more money
playing poker. Period.

That's what makes Texas Hold 'Em such a
fascinating game... there are just so many
scenarios that can occur, and so many
special "tricks" and "techniques" you can
use to beat the competition.

Of course, you'll probably never figure them
all out on your own... and that's why I'm
here to help.

If you're serious about taking your card
playing skills to the next level, then it's
time you buy my book, "Texas Hold 'Em
Secrets".

This proven, step-by-step "roadmap" will
improve your game TREMENDOUSLY and help you
achieve your goals...

Whether that means winning more money, just
beating your friends, having more fun, or
perhaps going to the WSOP.

No matter what you want out of poker, THIS
book will help.

Here's the link where you can buy it now: {De-linked)

I'll talk to you again soon.


Your Friend,

Roy Rounder


--------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer...
We do not promote illegal, underage gambling or
gambling to those who live in a jurisdiction where
gambling is considered unlawful. The information
within this site and newsletter is being presented
solely for entertainment purposes. We will not be
held responsible for any personal loss of wagers
or damages you may incur. Anyone concerned about
having a gambling problem can contact Gamblers
Anonymous for further information.
--------------------------------------------------

Roy Rounder Communications
1453 3rd Street #510
Santa Monica
CA 90401
United States"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'd love to know if anybody here has read Roy's book (can't find it in the book list) and would also love to hear your opinions on the scenario presented above.

[a500lbgorilla]

He doesn't sound very good.

10 bucks preflop and 20 on the flop is 1/2th the pot. That's not strong, thx. His hand range could be much larger than TPTK and over pairs. Including A HighCard or just the AK

Of course if you have the OESFD you're a favorite to win the pot, so raising is standard. A "good player" would raise, not call/fold. A Bad player would call/fold. A horrible player would call/call/fold and a fish would even bother with the hand in the first place.

-'rilla

[Warpe]

Thanks 'rilla. I was thinking that this was a caveat emptor situation. I'm on his mailing list until I unsubscribe, so as the "tips" come in while he trys to sell me his book I'll post 'em for analysis and comment, barring any cease and desist letters.

[Warpe]

Latest missive from Roy Rounder. At least you've gotta admire this guy's direct marketing skills. The subject is betting patterns. How much merit do his comments have, in your experience?

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Hey [Warpe],

I'd like to share with you the REAL poker tells
that take place in Texas Holdem.

I'm not talking about when your opponent scratches
his eyebrow... or when he shuffles his chips... or
when he chews his gum aggressively.

I'm talking about BETTING PATTERNS.

It's been my experience that approximately 80% of
the betting action at a poker table fits within
PREDICTABLE and RELIABLE patterns.

Here's what I mean:

The other day I was playing at a $2-5 no limit
cash game with my buddies. I focused all of my
energies just on keeping track of PRE-FLOP RAISES
and POST-FLOP BETS.

Here are some examples of the patterns I
discovered...

First off, this older guy named Elroy would throw
out the occasional pre-flop raise. By the end of
the night, it was almost TOO EASY to figure out
what he was holding... just based on his bets.

His first pre-flop raise was $15. The hand played
out and he turned over 10-9 suited.

Later he made it $40 pre-flop to play. Again, I
was fortunate to see his hand... this time it was
pocket Queens.

Later he made it $25 pre-flop to play. That one
ended up being pocket Kings.

And he made it $15 to play on the button again
later... with an A-4 of diamonds.

As the night progressed, I "cracked the code" to
Elroy's betting patterns. When he had a monster
like K-K or A-A, he'd bet $25 pre-flop. It was a
bet that usually gets one or two callers.

If he had pocket 10s, Jacks, or Queens, he bet
$40-$50 pre-flop. This makes sense. He didn't want
to see a flop with these hands... he just wanted
to steal the blinds. Or if he saw the flop, he
only wanted one caller.

And his $10-$15 raises were simply "pot builders"
when he had hidden hands or something decent...
like K-Q, 10-9, or A-4.

Of course... it was NOT just Elroy that fell into
these predictable patterns...

Another guy at the table, let's call him Jeff,
would throw out a $10 bet on the flop every time
he was on a draw.

Of the fourteen times he bet $10 on the flop, I
saw his hand turned over eight times (it was an
8-hour game). AND EVERY SINGLE TIME HE SHOWED, he
was on some type of draw... whether it was for the
flush or straight.

So of course, every time the "make" card came out
of the deck, I knew Jeff had the goods... and I
folded my hand.

I even busted him once when he tried to BLUFF his
busted draw on the river and I won a major pot
because of this read.

The last great example from the night was with my
buddy Jack. He made several $40 pre-flop raises
with early positioning. He'd normally get a caller
or two for the flop.

AFTER the flop, it was always obvious if he had
hit or missed his hand.

Let's say the flop came out:

Q-9-7

All different suits.

If Jack came out firing $80 after his $40 pre-flop
raise, he had the goods. This is when he was
holding a monster like King or Aces and wasn't
scared of anything on the board.

But let's say he threw out a $40 bet... which was
the same as his pre-flop raise. That means he was
holding a hand like Jacks, Tens, or A-K.

He was scared of the flop but still wanted to
throw out a bet to represent the board and try to
win the pot.

It was a simple pattern. Plain to see.

But the sad thing was, no one else at the table
read into these patterns...

If I were in the hand with Jack when he followed
his $40 pre-flop raise with a $40 post-flop bet,
I would go back over the top of him. I got to do
this a few times... and each time I won a lot of
money.

Overall for the night, I walked out of that poker
room a BIG WINNER. And the primary reason was
because I tracked betting patterns and took the
time to get a read on my opponents.

OK, so let's talk about how to immediately apply
this new information for your next poker game.

There are THREE MAIN PATTERNS you want to pay
attention to:

1. Pre-flop raises

Watch carefully when someone raises before the
flop. PAY ATTENTION TO THEIR POSITIONING. A common
pattern is that a lot of players will raise from
the button no matter what they have... and this
can be "free chips" for you when you've got a
read.

Often times the HUGE pre-flop raises aren't the
ones to be scared of. Like in my example earlier,
Elroy bet $25 with monsters and $40 or more with
pocket 10s, Jacks, or Queens.

Find out what someone does when they pick up low
pocket pairs, suited connectors, and two high
cards.

2. Post-flop bets

The next pattern is what a player does AFTER the
flop. How much does he bet?

You'll discover players who "represent the flop"
consistently with the same bet size over and over
again.

You'll also discover other players who check-raise
every time they have a big hand.

And so on...

3. Post-flop bets AFTER pre-flop raises

This is important. This is perhaps the EASIEST
pattern to pick up.

After someone raises before the flop, watch what
they do AFTER the flop (this works best when they
have early positioning).

A lot of your opponents will "back down" from
their pre-flop raises if they didn't catch
anything on the flop.

This is because they're afraid of losing too many
chips on this one single hand...

If they DID catch something great, they'll show
it with a huge bet on the flop. The pot is big
enough to take down now, so they won't be afraid
of everyone folding.

And last but not least, watch out for post-flop
bets that are SMALLER than the pre-flop raises...
or that equal the MINIMUM bet allowed.

Sometimes this is a MONSTER in disguise... someone
who's INVITING you to go back over the top of him.
Be careful.

OK, so those are the three main patterns to look
for. The next step is to remember that a lot of
this "betting behavior" is COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS.

In fact, you want to SEEK OUT players who seem to
get into their "zone" and make bets unconsciously.

When you find a player like this, it's like taking
candy from a baby. Seriously.

You DON'T want to try to "figure out" an opponent
who's always CONSCIOUSLY trying to think of ways
to change their betting patterns... that will just
give you a headache and waste your time.

When tracking bets, categorize them by RANGES.

Most players don't bet the IDENTICAL amounts again
and again and again... but they bet the IDENTICAL
RANGES over and over.

For instance, Elroy bet between $40 and $50 when
he was holding a medium pocket pair. He bet
between $10 and $15 for his "pot builder" hands
like suited connectors.

OK, so now that you know the POWER behind betting
behavior and patterns, you must realize these
THREE crucial things:

1. MIX UP YOUR BETTING.

Don't fall into betting patterns yourself. Watch
your bets closely and track your OWN bets to make
sure you aren't getting into predictable patterns.

2. WATCH WHEN A PLAYER'S CARDS ARE TURNED OVER.

The only way to successfully discover betting
patterns is by watching when someone WINS the hand
and turns over his cards.

When this occurs, immediately review the hand in
your mind and the player's bets pre-flop and
post-flop.

3. DON'T TELL ANYONE YOU'RE TRACKING THEIR BETS.

If you tell your opponents (who may be your
friends) that you're tracking bets, you've just
shot yourself in the foot.

Because now THEY will start paying attention to
their bets and will mix them up accordingly.

If you're tracking bets with a pen and pad, tell
everyone the notes are for something else... don't
reveal your true intentions.

This concept of betting behavior is EXTREMELY
POWERFUL. If you use it, you'll win a lot of
money. Period.

When you first start off, the actual TRACKING
will be challenging in real-life games. If you're
playing ONLINE, tracking will be easy.

But don't get discouraged. The great (and
amazing) thing is, a lot of players fall into the
SAME BASIC patterns. You'll even start
categorizing PLAYERS THEMSELVES... not only their
bet sizes.

Your game will jump to a WHOLE NEW LEVEL.

Betting behavior is the ULTIMATE "poker tell",
because it offers the fastest and easiest way to
put your opponent on a hand.

If you'd like to take this skill to the "mastery"
level, then it's time you invested in my course,
"Texas Holdem Secrets".

I'll teach you step-by-step the in-depth
strategies and techniques that will transform you
into a POKER GENIUS.

And you'll be able to read your opponents almost
as if you were a PSYCHIC. You'll know what
someone will bet BEFORE they even reach for their
chips...

You'll INSTANTLY know what a player is holding
when they bet after the flop...

You'll know EXACTLY when to bluff, when to bet,
and when to fold...

Honestly, it will almost seem TOO EASY to win
ridiculous sums of money at the poker tables.

If you're ready for THIS kind of mastery, then
just click this link NOW to get your private copy
of my course. You won't regret it.

Click here: {De-linked}


Talk to you soon.

Your Friend,

Roy Rounder

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have noticed that a few of the guys I play with regularly have discernable patterns, but the better players are conscious of mixing it up. I rarely bet the similar strength hands the same way twice in a row.

(If these posts are just a waste of forum space, let me know and I'll stop posting them. I'm not thinking of buying Roy's book, but if anybody has it would be good to know what you think of it. )

[a500lbgorilla]

This one is better than his first.

A lot of people who believe they have "natural poker talent" are really just hard wired to relate betting to specific hands naturally. Or they easily infer all of the betting patterns from a new game quickly and it just seems like their reads are natural.

I didn't read it all though, it does look better.

-'rilla

Here are some e-book screenshots:

http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/5475/p33me.png
http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/8924/p43ck.png
http://img285.imageshack.us/img285/7161/p51os.png

prepare to "LAWL"

[dsaxton]

This sort of sounds like poker spam.

He talks about poker tactics like he's advertising some get rich quick program or something.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Didn't Roy Rounder own a chain of fried chicken places? I use to love going to eat there as a kid.

[STIdrivr]

My friend bought the E book and let me read it.

This is a good book for people that play to tight. Like me.
It has helped me to open my game up a little and i have had an increase in profits. A lot of the things he teaches are mostly only good for Live games that are not too small of stakes. He is all about setting up your table image.

[Rondavu]

Roy Rounder is Rory Monahan. He played in the WSOP event #2. He busted someone famous early, but I forget who it was. He finished 30th out of 2305 for an $11,135 payday.

I actually have a picture that he sent me somewhere in my email

Ok I actually am Rory Monahan. Just kidding. My friends call me Roy Roundavu

[Zangief]

Honestly, it will almost seem TOO EASY to win
ridiculous sums of money at the poker tables.

[Warpe]

Honestly, it will almost seem TOO EASY to win
ridiculous sums of money at the poker tables.

Hey, I didn't write it...but yeah, when it's put THAT way ya gotta wonder...I've got some waterfront property in New Orleans to sell ya as well...

[Warpe]

Futher to...I'll refrain from posting any more of these unless they're particulary entertaining...

Pirate the ebook and give it to me :O
It doesn't sound like it would be worth buying
EDIT: obligatory JAY KAY ME IS NOT PIRATE THOSE EBOOKS GOT ON MY HARD DRIVE BY THEMSELVES

[Rondavu]

I have the book. It sucks. The newsletters he sends are about 10xBB better.

[STIdrivr]

I have the book. It sucks. The newsletters he sends are about 10xBB better.

I agree

I have the book. It sucks. The newsletters he sends are about 10xBB better.

I have his newsletters in an ebook format if anyone is interested

[Rondavu]

Did you get the latest newsletter? It's friggin hilarious. His readers all slam him for spamming them with a solicitation for some odds software and calling it free. Then you go to the site and you have to deposit at bodog to get it.

So to sum it up, the readers slammed him, and he sent out a newsletter with the slammings included, and his reactions to the slammings. They include...

WOA THERE BUDDY... I can sense a little "angst" in
your voice! Does somebody need a hug? Haha... I'm just playin' man.

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, I'll
just say it's "half-free" from now on.

Now, to answer you question about my newsletter
becoming a "commercial outlet"...
If you don't like my newsletter, don't read it!

So just cool it.

Jeeze... sounds like you need a hug too. If you're too scared to sign up, then don't do it! Just quit WHINING, will ya?

[fender55]

I also receive his news letter. last 1 was interesting selisitation, but over all, admittedly being a reasonably new player, I find many of his tips helpufl especially in live games.

The first letter you posted was actually a little trick that I started doing on my own, buying a free card when on a draw and by the betting patterns I know tha top has top pair and he's too stupid to try and shut out my draw by betting way over my pot odds to call, I'll reraise and watch him check the turn and then either bet hard to take the pot, or check to see the river free. I've found this effective many times, but you need to have a good grip on the second letter he posted about betting patterns to successfully work the reraise on a draw.

I would emagine that this strategy is most effective against begginer players since better players hitting tp on the flop with a strait or flush draw on the board will bet higher on their tptk to knock out anybody who might be drawing.

In short, I think many of his tips are eeffective in the right situations, but different things work for different people. He has some good testimonials on his web sight and lets hope nobody is making shit up. lol

Anyway, helped me when I was learning to get a more difficult to read table image and taught me a few little tips and tricks, but probably wants you to buy his book to give you the good stuff and if it sucks, guess its not worth the $$$ it costs. Interesting post.


Cory

[biondino]

I have to give props to Roy for being the only spammer to get my personal private never-give-it-out-to-strangers email address. Oh, and the email address I set up but have never actually used, ever, EXCEPT TO SIGN UP FOR TEXAS CALCULATEM's free trial.

FUCK YOU, TEXAS CALCULATEM.

[BankItDrew]

If you're tracking bets with a pen and pad, tell
everyone the notes are for something else... don't
reveal your true intentions.

This is something I think everyone should keep in mind.

[mrhappy333]

I get his emails also, Like everything, nothing and no one is perfect. You have to read everything and make sense of it yourself. What works for me may not work for you. But the more you read the better off you will be. There is alot of AWESOME info here, and there is some junk too. READ READ READ. Knowledge is POWER!!

[piratepeaty]

I get his newsletters, I honestly don't know how I ended up signing up for them. Personally, I think his newsletters are extremely basic, although I generally agree with most of the information. For example, in the first example you post the guy flopped a monster draw in position.

We are a favorite over alot of Josh's range. Unless, Josh has the Ace high flush draw, we have tremedous equity with this hand. Even if Josh has a set of 9s, we are still in pretty good shape. With that board, we also have some fold equity against an unimproved AK or AQ and might win the pot right away. Did I mention we are in position? Raising seems very obvious here.

[Renton]

I have the book. Got it free for playing at Poker Room. Its not that great. He sums up how to play AK in like two example hands. His book really did help me out when I was first starting though. Its great for beginners.

[STIdrivr]

It really helps people like me that started out playing tight and didnt see a reason to do any different. It really helped me open up my game, this was before I found FTR or right when I heard of it.

[deadmoola]

Seriously, this guy,Rory Monahan he probably 21-22 yrs old, is from a small town in Southern Illinois. There are no casinos close-by and 95% of his experience comes from playing nightly with freinds. I think he did make like $11000 in the WSOP last year maybe, but as far as "PRO" no, huh uh. I think the deal is, his brother or cousin or brother's cousin makes all of these websites and things and plasters his name all over them. Personally I wouldn't let him do it, he's ruining his name. If he ever does get even half as "good" as his newsletters claim, he will be a laughing stock.

[STIdrivr]

He actually is a pro and I would bet my bankroll he is a better player than you... Are you just jealous or do you actually have a reason why you dont like him?

[LewsTherin7]

You can get all his books for free if you get the license for Texas Calculate em by depositing $50 at Party Poker or Absolute Poker. Then all you have to do is attach the Texas Calculate em to your real money games. Use it or don't use it and after a 1000 hands you get his first book, 2500 hands his second book and 5000 hands his third book. I only have 2500 hands to go to get 5000 for his third book.

http://www.calculatem.com/counter.html

[biondino]

His writing style makes me want to kill him. And anyone who addresses me as "friend" is going to get a friendly smack in the mouth for their troubles.

[Turska]

Whats new about this?

T.

[XTR1000]

didn´t read the whole reply´s, but on full tilts last Tips from the pros Steve Brechner talked about the same check-raising draws theory....