Extracting with overfull

[Vrax]

Fishing hole on loose $25 tables.
UTG QQ, I raise 5BB, got 4 callers for a pot $6.25.

Flop Q55 club draw. I lead for $3.50 and everybody folds.

Standard or should I've checked this flop?

[jackvance]

I check here. With 4 people still to act, someone might bet at it. And if not, let's hope someone catches the turn.

[Miffed22001]

bet, hope someone caught a bit

[Warpe]

Check and represent a whiff, 'cause a whiff is not going to c-bet with 4 callers. This is one the few hands I'll slowplay. I'd check here last to act as well.

[WhooFleuryScores]

I'd bet out trying to reprsent an AA/KK and possibly a missed AK/or unhappy AQ.You opponents usually don't hang themselves for you.

[Warpe]

Flop Q55 club draw.

You want someone to draw for the flush or catch a piece on the turn. Leading out here on a flop that nobody has likely caught a piece of is just silly, imo. With 4 callers, someone will take a stab at this on a loose table, and if someone catches TPTK at 25NL you could very well destack them.

[Miffed22001]

pot building...

[bigred]

On this kind of board I want to let someone else start the action. Check this.

[Warpe]

pot building...

You need someone to call to build a pot.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...eving+exercise

[bigred]

pot building...

You need someone to call to build a pot.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...eving+exercise

Exactly. Show weakness and try to let someone hang themselves.

[Miffed22001]

any 5 and any club draw calls a bet.

[Warpe]

any 5 and any club draw calls a bet.

You have 2nd nuts behind quads. There's no need to be in a hurry here. The pot's not going anywhere.

[andy-akb]

This is a big pot hand, you should build a big pot. You raised PF and got 4 callers, if this pot were heads up or only had 2 others in then checking wouldnt be that bad, in a pot thats already big and multiway we should bet here expecting somebody to like there hand enough to call. If nobody calls here then you probably werent getting much more out of this hand anyways. Is anybody drawing out on you? No, probably not, but in a pot like this draws are most likely going to call a bet. If we check here I think we are missing a bet.

[Vrax]

So, with betting the flop I basically rep queen/KK-AA, so it will be called only by Q (1 card in deck), flushdraw, AA/KK trapper or unbeliever?

And with checking I allow totally hopeless hands to catch (pocket pairs filling up) and AQ will make protection bet anyway and maybe someone takes stab a it?

[andy-akb]

So, with betting the flop I basically rep queen/KK-AA, so it will be called only by Q (1 card in deck), flushdraw, AA/KK trapper or unbeliever?

And with checking I allow totally hopeless hands to catch (pocket pairs filling up) and AQ will make protection bet anyway and maybe someone takes stab a it?

If we bet draws will call, AQ will probably raise, people thinking we whiffed may raise, and there is a good chance a lot of pocket pairs may call too. If you check the draws will most likely check behind, pocket pairs may bet, AQ would bet and almost everything else would check behind. The difference between the two is that when we bet we allow the draws to make a mistake, we may get more out of AQ through a raise, but we may also lose some value from somebody trying to steal the pot, there isnt a huge difference between either plays in regards to PPs.

How would you play this hand if you raised preflop with AK or AJ or TT?

[jackvance]

I'd bet out trying to reprsent an AA/KK and possibly a missed AK/or unhappy AQ.You opponents usually don't hang themselves for you.

You'd bet representing AA/KK? lol?.. and people hang themselves plenty of times.

[mcatdog]

The problem with representing a whiff is that it's totally transparent once you actually do put money in the pot. Exactly what range of hands are you check-calling or check-raising on this kind of flop after you raised pre-flop and got this many callers?

I want to stack somebody with this hand. If I give the guy with 65 a reason to be scared that's a much bigger mistake than if I bet the flop and scare away some loser with 88 who probably won't put much money into the pot anyway unless the turn is another 8.

I'd check this flop heads-up against an aggro-donk sometimes, otherwise I'm betting for sure.

[Miffed22001]

check calling here is so transparent.
Pot build with hand.
Quote from lukie a month or so ago 'i love to see players calling flop bets to try and play big pots on later streets'
Checking this flop is just well bad poker imo. If we put a lot of money in early then the flush draws and 5x's or perhaps even Qxs are not going to fold on later streets depedning on what cards fall.
If we try to play a big pot when the flush card falls its going to look suspicious. Arguably, at 25nl noone will notice perhaps but lets get into good habits?!

[cardsman1992]

I vote checking the flop in this instance. One of the few times I would ever check a made hand on the flop. Let them catch up. If you lead, miffed, how much do you lead? If I led, I would lead around half pot as he did.

[andy-akb]

I vote checking the flop in this instance. One of the few times I would ever check a made hand on the flop. Let them catch up. If you lead, miffed, how much do you lead? If I led, I would lead around half pot as he did.

What likely hands do you expect your opponents to have that will put money in if you check and not if you bet? Do draws check behind here in a multiway pot, would they call if you bet?

[cardsman1992]

Any pocket pair probably calls preflop. If they think you miss, then they could bet at the pot right there. I want to give them that chance, at least. AK/AJ/AQ may not bet at it. A draw in LP may call PF and then try to steal. I just think on that board you chase everyone off when the only cards you have to worry about on the turn/river are 5s. I think KK/AA reraise PF, but sometimes they try to get cute and just cold call. So an A or K might be a little worrisome, but not much. Draws might call 1/2 pot bet, but all PPs fold.

Since there are more combinations of draws than PPs, I guess folding out pps and keeping draws in might be the better play after all............??????

[jackvance]

What likely hands do you expect your opponents to have that will put money in if you check and not if you bet?

Hands that hit the turn. Hands that have gained confidence that they are good, such as pps. Hands that want to steal the pot.

Do draws check behind here in a multiway pot, would they call if you bet?

Let's hope they hit, then they give their stack.

[Miffed22001]

What likely hands do you expect your opponents to have that will put money in if you check and not if you bet?

Hands that hit the turn. Hands that have gained confidence that they are good, such as pps. Hands that want to steal the pot.

Do draws check behind here in a multiway pot, would they call if you bet?

Let's hope they hit, then they give their stack.

a pp is hardly going to attack that flop for a steal. draws will sensibly take a free card where its given.

Draws wont give us there stack if we dont build the pot to start with. We dont need to defend our ahnd against draws, infact argauably we can offer them odds but checking or check/calling is both obvious and bad pot management

[beez]

just go all in. you will stack AA, KK, any 5, maybe a nit calling with the last queen and any PP that thinks you're bullshitting, maybe someone who thinks their draw will be good if they hit. especially at this level.

[jackvance]

Draws wont give us there stack if we dont build the pot to start with. We dont need to defend our ahnd against draws, infact argauably we can offer them odds but checking or check/calling is both obvious and bad pot management

Not at this level.

[Miffed22001]

Draws wont give us there stack if we dont build the pot to start with. We dont need to defend our ahnd against draws, infact argauably we can offer them odds but checking or check/calling is both obvious and bad pot management

Not at this level.

theyll chase the club draw regardless.

[jackvance]

theyll chase the club draw regardless.

I meant that it's not obvious.

[Renton]

at the loose and fishy party tables check this

at a table with decent players bet this

[jyms]

micro- I check this and let someone catch up
Low stakes- I push and hope someone caught Q or 5, or slow playing AA, KK or think I'm bluffing at it.

[andy-akb]

micro- I check this and let someone catch up
Low stakes- I push and hope someone caught Q or 5, or slow playing AA, KK or think I'm bluffing at it.

You open push for more than 3x the pot?

[jyms]

Is there an easier way to extract a stack from one of four callers. If I 3xBB or 4xBB what's the chances someone stays. I only have a limited repetiore of plays that I can make succesfully.

[Renton]

pushing is bad

[jyms]

Then i'll stop. You definitly know more than I do. Is slowplaying then the best answer. or does anyone have another line.

[andy-akb]

Then i'll stop. You definitly know more than I do. Is slowplaying then the best answer. or does anyone have another line.

Slowplaying is not the best answer in this specific situation, if the pot were heads up then that wouldnt be bad. Here we should be making our standard sized cbet, whatever that is.

[Warpe]

Slowplaying is not the best answer in this specific situation, if the pot were heads up then that wouldnt be bad. Here we should be making our standard sized cbet, whatever that is.

More opponents makes it more likely that someone will catch on the turn, which is all the more reason to slowplay it.

[a500lbgorilla]

bet, hope someone caught a bit

nah, check and let someone bet. you're less likely to cont bet with so many callers.

[andy-akb]

Slowplaying is not the best answer in this specific situation, if the pot were heads up then that wouldnt be bad. Here we should be making our standard sized cbet, whatever that is.

More opponents makes it more likely that someone will catch on the turn, which is all the more reason to slowplay it.

More opponents makes it more likely that one of them will have a hand that they like enough to call a bet. In a headsup pot it is much less likely that your opponent will have a hand he likes enough to call a bet on this board given your hand. With 4 people calling my PFR I am betting here expecting somebody to call, maybe even raise. Checking does not get more money into this pot because your line is incredibly transparent and its hard for somebody to actually make a hand on a later street that would pay you off enough to make it worthwhile. A made hand is going to be calling a bet or raising here, a draw is going to be calling a bet. If the draw hits we are most likely taking their stack either way so its neutral EV either way in that regard, but we make money when they dont hit but call our bet.

[beez]

pushing is bad

why?

[zook]

This is a good thread. I lead for reasons that have mostly been described above:

1) Multi-way pot means there a good chance someone has a 5 or a flush draw.
2) Loose 25NL players are usually chasing the flush.
3) I lead with AA/KK/AQ here, so I want to represent those hands and make them think they can stack me with a 5 or a made flush.
4) The only hand I might check/call this flop with after raising UTG is AcKc... I know 25NL players probably won't put us on a monster if we c/c, but it's transparent enough that they might.

I think the flop lead usually gets called in this situation. Bad luck Vrax.

[Warpe]

pushing is bad

why?

You might as well turn your cards face up. Not a lot is going to call a push.

[Pelion]

I lead for 3/4 pot. Thats a fairly standard cbet for me.

I think alot of PPs will call this, alot of people will call with the flush draw, a 5 will call and maybe raise (or wait to raise the turn), and an overpair probably raises.

Checking means the draws dont pay, and a PP might try to take a stab at it but hes not putting much in once you check/raise.

Its also not usually a good idea to check your monsters and only bet when you miss with AK.

[dwags222]

lead for 2 dollars because 25 dollar players are donks and they wont realize small bet = strength...plus this gives draws good odds and you will stack them when they hit

[Thee One]

lead for 2 dollars because 25 dollar players are donks and they wont realize small bet = strength...plus this gives draws good odds and you will stack them when they hit

I'll go you one better and bet $1. I'll get calls from the drawers and a raise from the guy who thinks he knows how to play and senses weakness in my bet. The thinking players, if there are any, will fold but they aren't too likely to pay anyway. I then call the re-raise and make a min bet on the turn hoping he continues his bluff and pushes (amazing how often this workds). If there is a river it's all in, if I'm raised on the turn it's all-in too depending on stacks at that point.

I want some money going in on the flop and want to give someone the chance to pick off my missed AK. Paired boards make even 25NL players nervous on the flop. Remarkably they often forget by the river, but you have to make it there first.

[BankItDrew]

If you get a call on this flop, you will get a call with a turn card. Check, let someone catch something or let someone bet on the flop for you.

[johnnyBuz]

first to act with the 2nd nuts, why not check? with 4 callers, there's a pretty good chance someone will take a stab at it. call the stab, and possibly do the same thing on the turn. if it's not an overcard, you've still got the nuts. and if it is an A or K, how likely is it someone had AA/KK?

betting the flop strong is just asking for people to fold all around.

[mcatdog]

I check here. With 4 people still to act, someone might bet at it.

nah, check and let someone bet.

first to act with the 2nd nuts, why not check? with 4 callers, there's a pretty good chance someone will take a stab at it.

Could someone explain why we give a [censored] if someone bets at it? When you flop the nut full house, is your first reaction "Hoo boy, let's see if I can pick off someone's flop bet and win $5?"

[cardsman1992]

No, but it's not to prematurely cream my pants either, put out a c-bet to non-thinking players, who then fold all around. So I win a smaller pot instead of letting someone build it for me when I have little chance of losing anyway. If I wait to the turn to bet, then I win at least the same amount as if I bet the flop and everyone folded, while giving someone the chance to catch a card and think they are ahead. We are only worried about 2 cards in the deck falling (two 5s) It is highly unlikely that AA/KK do not reraise PF. I just don't see how checking is that much worse than betting when you have 2nd nuts...at least against non-thinking players. I agree if you have good players at the table, then check/call-check/raise is transparent....

[Warpe]

I agree if you have good players at the table, then check/call-check/raise is transparent....

Who cares if it's transparent? At least you've relieved them of some more chips before the dawn breaks.

[andy-akb]

No, but it's not to prematurely cream my pants either, put out a c-bet to non-thinking players, who then fold all around. So I win a smaller pot instead of letting someone build it for me when I have little chance of losing anyway. If I wait to the turn to bet, then I win at least the same amount as if I bet the flop and everyone folded, while giving someone the chance to catch a card and think they are ahead. We are only worried about 2 cards in the deck falling (two 5s) It is highly unlikely that AA/KK do not reraise PF. I just don't see how checking is that much worse than betting when you have 2nd nuts...at least against non-thinking players. I agree if you have good players at the table, then check/call-check/raise is transparent....

Ive seen AA/KK not reraise preflop plenty of times.

One of the most important factors about when effectively cbetting is the numbers of players in the pot; the more there are, the less effective it becomes. In this situation he had 4 callers of his preflop raise, it is incredibly likely that when he bets he will get a call, often from hands that wouldnt have even put in a bet before. Betting is better because it builds the pot now, something you want to do with a big hand, something checking doesnt do.