JJ and TT check up

[drtofu66]

If a cbet doesn't taken the pot down, am I doing anything stupid here?
Am I cbetting at bad times?



******* Hand 1 ********

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.125/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $7.95
UTG+1: $24.10
Hero: $23.40
MP2: $12.20
MP3: $15.10
CO: $19.10
Button: $27.25
SB: $4.80
BB: $2.85

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with T T
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: Q 8 9 ($3.25, 3 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: 7 ($7.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO calls.

River: 2 ($15.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $10 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $15.25


******* Hand 2 ********

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $69.25
UTG+1: $7.70
MP1: $25.00
MP2: $86.65
MP3: $16.20
CO: $9.60
Button: $25.00
Hero: $24.75
BB: $45.05

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with T T
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.5, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: 4 8 4 ($1.75, 3 players)
Hero bets $1.2, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Turn: 3 ($4.15, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, MP2 calls.

River: A ($9.15, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $10, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $10 returned to MP2.

Results:
Final pot: $9.15


******* Hand 3 ********

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.25
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $35.35
UTG+1: $4.30
UTG+2: $25.25
MP1: $26.15
Hero: $24.25
MP3: $4.35
CO: $35.25
Button: $21.00
SB: $22.70
BB: $23.55

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with T T
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: Q Q 9 ($2.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, Button calls.

Turn: K ($5.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $5.5


******* Hand 4 ********

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
MP3: $4.35
UTG: $29.10
Hero: $24.50
MP1: $22.10
MP2: $18.00
MP3: $3.00
CO: $9.00
Button: $24.50
SB: $21.25
BB: $22.20

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with J J
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: T 7 8 ($4.5, 4 players)
Hero bets $3, MP1 calls, MP2 raises to $6, Button folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: T ($22.5, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $5, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: 4 ($37.5, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 is all-in $10.1, MP2 calls all-in $6, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $4.1 returned to MP1.

Results:
Final pot: $49.5


******* Hand 5 ********


Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.25
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $23.90
UTG+1: $42.30
UTG+2: $20.15
MP1: $39.50
Hero: $20.70
MP3: $16.40
CO: $21.00
Button: $77.50
SB: $23.40
BB: $41.10

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with J J
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: 2 3 Q ($7.75, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $4, Button calls, 3 folds.

Turn: Q ($15.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $10 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $15.75

[Pelion]

It would be useful to post some reads/ stats on the villains in your hand history posts. Even something as vague as "22/1 after 15 hands" gives some insight

Hand 1: Id check/fold that flop. Lost of draws and an overcard against 2 players usually means one of them is going to have something they wont put down and then you wont know where you are. That 7 just completed every draw out there and he could already have a Q anyway. All you have is a 1 card straight draw and most of those will give someone a 1 card flush so just check/fold it.

Hand 2: Gotta cbet that. On the river theres no reason to think he has an A or a flush draw. Id probably bet just over half pot (mostly as a blocking bet but also a little for value from an 8 or 9) and fold to a raise.

Hand 3: I bet the flop. On the turn I might check/fold this but im probably going to try another barrel here. Id probably make it $4 but give up if I get called (or raised). This is the kind of flop alot of people will call with any PP just to see what you do on the turn.

Hand 4: This is tricky. Im not really sure what id do here. Definatly bet that flop. I might just check/fold the turn though. With 2 callers its pretty likely someone has

a) A Ten
b) A higher PP they are trying to trap with
c) A set
d) A straight
e) A pair and a straight draw

Against 2 players I dont think youre good very often on the turn here.

Hand 5: I probably make the flop $6 but I probably check/ fold the turn.

[jackvance]

Dont cbet your higher pocket pairs with an overcard on the flop.

[drtofu66]

It would be useful to post some reads/ stats on the villains in your hand history posts. Even something as vague as "22/1 after 15 hands" gives some insight

Yeah, sorry about that. I jus started playing the Ongame network, though and play is decidely different than the sites like Party that I've been playing. With only a handful (<10 hands) on anybody, I wasn't sure how much you could tell about someone.

Hand 2: Gotta cbet that. On the river theres no reason to think he has an A or a flush draw. Id probably bet just over half pot (mostly as a blocking bet but also a little for value from an 8 or 9) and fold to a raise.
[/quote]

Interesting. He did minraise PF, though. I was more concerned about a bigger pair like JJ or if he was stubborn enough to call down 2 streets with AK/AQ/AJ/AT.

[ark4748]

Dont cbet your higher pocket pairs with an overcard on the flop.

That seems a little to general of a statement. You won't c-bet with QQ/KK with an A on the flop when you are heads-up?

[Miffed22001]

Dont cbet your higher pocket pairs with an overcard on the flop.

That seems a little to general of a statement. You won't c-bet with QQ/KK with an A on the flop when you are heads-up?

totally agree
C-bet the flop but check/fold later streets if it looks like you hand is no good.

[yorib]

DrTofu, I've noticed that I'm far more aggressive with TT/JJ than most others (at the begginning tables), I'll almost always c-bet if it's checked around to me (or if I'm first). That's regardless of the board. Then again, I tend to play TT+ the same. Of course, if someone gives me a serious reraise, or a large bet I'll reevaluate the hand.

[jackvance]

That seems a little to general of a statement. You won't c-bet with QQ/KK with an A on the flop when you are heads-up?

It can happen, but standard I don't.

What's the point? If he folds, he likely didn't have the overcard and I probably had the best hand. If he calls, he probably has the overcard. After, I can then extract value from bluffs or my opponent valuing his second pair, which I probably beat. I'd rather extract value from weaker hands, or minimize losses when I'm beat than cbetting because I feel obliged to do it because I raised or something.

[ark4748]

That seems a little to general of a statement. You won't c-bet with QQ/KK with an A on the flop when you are heads-up?

It can happen, but standard I don't.

What's the point? If he folds, he likely didn't have the overcard and I probably had the best hand. If he calls, he probably has the overcard. After, I can then extract value from bluffs or my opponent valuing his second pair, which I probably beat. I'd rather extract value from weaker hands, or minimize losses when I'm beat than cbetting because I feel obliged to do it because I raised or something.

Ah good point makes sense. I'm coming from SNGs so I'm still working on extracting value. I can see how that works in position, but whats your line when your OOP?

[jackvance]

The same. I want him to gain some confidence in his hand if he doesn't have the overcard, or make him want to bluff at it, so my position doesn't matter to solicite that effect.

[andy-akb]

Dont cbet your higher pocket pairs with an overcard on the flop.

That seems a little to general of a statement. You won't c-bet with QQ/KK with an A on the flop when you are heads-up?

I may cbet QQ with an ace on the flop, but not KK. With KK what hands are you folding out when you cbet? Any hand that isnt an ace. You arent pushing an ace off his hand because if he called pfr with one, his isnt going to fold when he hits it. If they have an ace you are drawing to 2 outs, if they dont have an ace then they are typically way behind. So betting will get calls from an ace and folds from all other hands, checking allows your opponent to bet a worse hand and is the best option when in position with KK on an Ace high board [against most opponents]. OOP Im not too sure how Id play this same spot.

[ark4748]

The same. I want him to gain some confidence in his hand if he doesn't have the overcard, or make him want to bluff at it, so my position doesn't matter to solicite that effect.

But how do you interpret a flop bet? He may feel that your check after your preflop raise is a sign of weakness and bet the flop, or bet because he has the overcard. I wouldn't be able to fold QQ to my opponent betting an Ahigh flop in postion, but maybe this is a leak for me? If you call the flop bet, are you check/folding the turn?

[jackvance]

This is where reads come in. Generally speaking, you go into check/call mode. Ie, if he doesn't bet too strong you'll call. Fold if the board obviously destroys your hand. To call a stronger bet you need a read that this guy does strong bluffs when you show weakness. If your opp is a total nit who only value bets made hands, go into check/fold mode.

[bantam222]

c-bets are generally used when you missed a flop, but feel you can push an opponent off and hand that beats you, but isn't great.

If you have 77, raise PF, flop is KQ2 rainbow, you can c-bet and maybe push him off a queen, JJ, 1010, 99, 88, weak king maybe.


But if you have QQ, and the flop is A72 rainbow, checking is better, there is no draws. If you bet out and are called, he likely has an A and you will have to go into check/fold mode unless you hit your Q on the turn. If he folds you probaly had the best hand. you gain nothing by betting out, and cound lure a possible bluff by checking. Maybe hope he catches some part of the turn and will pay you off more.

[Pelion]

What's the point?

The point is there are plenty of hands he can hold that you beat, but that have lots of outs against you.

I like this line with KK since you arent going to see another overcard. With TT however, alot of overcards can still come. See if you can take it down now.