KK, QQ, JJ, TT

[Babydee2]

I know most of this depends on position/players left in game/amount of chips you have, but what is your normal standard procedure for playing these¿

Do you call? Raise 2/3x bb or push?

All will be different, but in most cases if you do get called its going to be by a player with an Ace - is it worth it to raise 2/3x just to see an Ace?? And if you do raise and an Ace pops up, what is your next move - checking seems like your giving up on the hand, raising causes you to lose more chips - I'm interested to see what the majority of people do in this case.

I normally will raise 2X/3x with the KK or QQ, but JJ and TT are more like just flat out calls, unless blinds are huge.

Thanks
Babydee2

[chardrian]

What type of game are you talking about?

[Babydee2]

5 or 10 sng's 9 player

[AHiltz]

Early in a SnG 4-5x bet or 3-4x raise. Middle stages 3-4x bet 3x raise. Late totally depends on M.

[Hartlin]

I don't how you can play JJ-KK scared in my opinion. I play JJ-KK as a monster, especially if no overcards come.

Lets figure out how many times an ace will fall on the flop. Hmm, 4 aces in the deck, we'll say 3 assuming that one player holds an ace. Simple math then..

3 cards with come, 3 aces in deck. The chance of an ace on the card (assuming 10 handed and only 1 ace is out) is going to be 3 / 32 or 10% of the time on the first card. 3 / 31 (10%) on 2nd card if it doesn't fall on the first card and 3 / 30 (10%) on 3rd card.

So what is this, like ROUGHLY 10% or 1 in 10 flops an ace will fall assuming one player holds an ace and noone else holds on vs your KK?

The lower your pair goes, the higher the % of an overcard flopping...

[TLR]

as with everything it depends.
early stages of Sng
KK: you want to isolate to 2 or 3 way pot, prefebaly 2 - raise/reraise from any position your standard raise (should be 3-4BB). If someone reraises rereraise.
On the flop bet any non A. On a A flop bet if you are first to act, fold to bets/reraises.

QQ: raise/reraise from any position, if you are reraised by 1 opponent call, 2 or more - fold.
On the flop assuming you were driving the action preflop, play it pretty much as K. If the flop is K high and you have one villian dont worry too much, people usually play Ax but not Kx, your only real concern is AK.
JJ,TT: From early position limp it, fold if there is too much action, call reasonable bets. If there are multiple limpers then you play it for set/overpair only.
Mid/Late position, raise them, call only reasonable reraise and then proceed with caution.
If you raise and get one caller then bet any low flop or a flop with 1 overpair (prefebaly not A), check/fold flops with multi overcards.

Mid-Late tourney - play it like it is the best hand preflop

[Werddown]

You have to think of these hands in terms of their ability to take down pots unimproved.

These are some of the best starting hands in the game, and to play them weakly simply because an ace "might fall" is a huge mistake.

Your opponent "might" flop a royal flush, but that doesn't mean you should be worried about it happening. The percentages are in your favor.

Read above about the odds of an ace falling on the flop, and then factor in the times that you'll hit your third card for a set and they flop that ace along with you, and you take their entire stack. Add in the times you get called by a smaller pocket pair and have them completely dominated, and you can see why these hands are some of the most profitable hands in the game.

I think your real problem may be playing too passively once an overcard does come on the flop and you're in position and its checked to you... You might not be c-betting like you should, being afraid that they "might" have that card.. This is a guranteed way to lose.

Another issue is that you might be getting too married to the hand once you invest chips preflop. Remeber: You're investing chips preflop because there's a strong chance that you're ahead at that point in the hand. After the flop comes and you make your bet, and they play back at you, you have to re-evaluate where you stand in the hand and just let it go if you do not think there is a reasonable chance you will either A) have the best hand at showdown or B ) Sense weakness and push them off their hand.

It's a game of ups and downs and the only way to come out on the winning side is to play the percentages and learn to recognize when you're ahead/behind. Unfortunately mastering this skill takes a very very long time.

[Lukie]

just limp in and spike a set, check/fold if you don't. Go all-in if you do. only call small raises with QQ and KK and fold that other garbage.

[Lukie]

Babydee,

in all seriousness, in an unraised pot, make a pot raise with all of them. If there's a raise in front of you, usually reraise the huge pairs and usually call, sometimes reraise the mid/big pairs.

[Xanadu]

Lets figure out how many times an ace will fall on the flop. Hmm, 4 aces in the deck, we'll say 3 assuming that one player holds an ace. Simple math then..

3 cards with come, 3 aces in deck. The chance of an ace on the card (assuming 10 handed and only 1 ace is out) is going to be 3 / 32 or 10% of the time on the first card. 3 / 31 (10%) on 2nd card if it doesn't fall on the first card and 3 / 30 (10%) on 3rd card.

So what is this, like ROUGHLY 10% or 1 in 10 flops an ace will fall assuming one player holds an ace and noone else holds on vs your KK?

Making the unnecessary and unuseful assumption that 1 other person holds an Ace, it is about 10% per card, but then how could it be 10% over 3 cards? Making this assumption, the probability that no ace falls is:
(29/32)(28/31)(27/30)= 73.7%. So the probability of an A falling on the flop is 26.3% with these assumptions.

It is, however, incorrect to make these assumptions because you can't see your opponent's hands. You don't know that there is an Ace out there. The actual odds of an A not falling on the flop are :
(46/50)(45/49)(44/48)= 77.4%. So the true probability of an Ace falling on the flop given the information you have (only your 2 non-ace cards) is 22.6%.

[Hartlin]

Thanks for doing the technical part I wasn't sure how to do it perfectly but I figured I'd try and give a little IDEA.

[aokrongly]

It sounds like you're playing these way too passively. First, 2xBB should be out of the question with these hands. You're inviting callers with all kinds of hands that you won't see. Second, you have be able to be able to bet your pocket pairs (at least JJ and up) after the flop even if an A or K hits. Continuation bets are a huge part of poker. They not only take hands, but even if you make a 1/2 pot continuation bet only to fold to a raise, then you're setting up future hands where you will do the same thing when you hit, or with AA, or a made set, etc.

Look at it this way, who will call your preflop raise with say QQ? Pocket pairs below QQ will probably call. That's 10 possibilities. AK will call, that's 1. AQ, that's 1. KQ, maybe. AJ?? AT? How far down do you think an A will call you? If you bet 4xBB then how far down with that weak Ace call you? It's going to cost him a fortune for at most a 3-outer. And there's no way for him to know that you don't have AK (which gives him a 2-outer). Then when the Ace hits, you bet into him again with your continuation bet.

I don't know what I'm missing here. But it sounds like you're playing JJ, QQ, and KK like 77, 88, 99. TT is a transitional hand where you make your decisions based on position, table image, how strong the other players (either in the hand or left to act) are, and your observations.

Alot of my advice on here regards NL RING. That's a whole different beast. The same small blinds in relation to your stack size. The ability to reload. Very low "time pressure", and alot less situational psychology in NL ring.

But in SNG's you don't get that many hands to play. If every ace scares you when you have a big PP, then what does that leave you with? AA, or Aface where you're hoping to flop that magic ace??

Anyway, my point is that you have to ACT in SnG's, and it's better to act with TT-KK, than 74. You can't be afraid of every ace. And you're not raising enough preflop.

In alot of instances TT is a push hand in a SNG, btw. You can't wait for help from the flop.

Now, with that said, you have to be aware of the "texture" of the flop. But so does your opponent. Play JJ, QQ, and AK all the same. That means raise them the same (3-4x) preflop and bet them the same after the flop.

If you have AK and the board comes t high bet it like you have QQ. If you have QQ and the board comes T high, bet it like you missed AK and are making a continuation bet. If you play consistently then you have a better chance of taking hands down AND getting players to come along when you have a quality hand.

just my opinion