Play from the small blind....

[Roco415]

Play from SB...

I was wondering which hands should i complete the SB with after limpers, w/o limpers against BB and when the pot has been raised from various positions...?

For example, i had a j-9 os in sb and there were two limpers, i figure its getting good odds but im gonna be OOP so what are the true value of hands in the small blind

[ProfessorOfOuts]

From the small blind with 2 mid position limpers i would play as following:

Raise AA-JJ,AKs,AQs,AK
Call: AJs,AQ,ATs,A2-A5s,AJ,KQ-Ts (or not),QJs-78s,QJ,JT,TT-77 (after further review calling with smaller pocket pairs in this spot is probably not smart)

No gappers even suited, this includes QT.

Gives you a wide range of hands to play that will usually flop safe if you're playing tight. The two limpers will encourage the BB not to raise, unless he's a maniac. So you've got decent profit potential with these hands, and a lot of them are easy to get away from.

[jameseyb]

I'd be more conservative than that, raising only AA, KK, AKs and AQs, and calling with the remaining PPs and KQs, AJs.

SCs I'd be folding as well as my "average" hands like AT, Ax and KJ. Position's the killer.

J

[Fnord]

I'd be more conservative than that, raising only AA, KK, AKs and AQs

Wow that's tight...

I like to raise up lots of stuff that might make a hand I want to play a big pot with. Sometimes I'll play AK like AA too. Not enough action in unraised pots.

[mcatdog]

I don't necessarily mind being out of position if the other players in the pot are bad enough. My range depends a lot on what I think of the limpers.

If at least one of the limpers is an ATM with a deep stack, I'll complete with anything that has any kind of potential at all, I'll just throw away my total crap hands like 83. When I'm being offered great pot odds to play a pot against an awful player, I jump all over that.

If the limpers are tight, I complete with about the same hands that ProfessorOfOuts mentioned, I also play suited one-gappers if the stacks are deep.

I also raise more than most of you. I always raise with AA-TT, and sometimes raise with AK-AJ, KQ, and 99-77, more often with the better hands in that range (obviously).

[jameseyb]

Fnord,

Yeah, I set myself some rules after losing a fair bit at $25NL and I am really trying to stop myself getting reamed playing bad cards out of position. Basically, if I can get myself a lot more position aware, then I can start playing more cards as I need to. Note that I am only _raising_ with these and will call with the others listed.

Ok, I may have reads on the people I am playing with an be able to drop my starting hand requirements, but at a new table with no one I know, I'd stick to those. You reckon this makes me too tight? PT rates me as TAg and I'd get you the stats, but my home machine is powered off.

J

[ProfessorOfOuts]

I'd be more conservative than that, raising only AA, KK, AKs and AQs, and calling with the remaining PPs and KQs, AJs.

SCs I'd be folding as well as my "average" hands like AT, Ax and KJ. Position's the killer.

J

I always play QJ/JT in this spot suited or not. Chances are if the early limpers make a pair, there's a good chance you might pickup a straight draw. And if you hit gold, and flop a straight, or two pair, there's a good chance the flop hit someone else as well, so you'll get action. Also, JT and QJ have very strong split two pair value when they hit. I don't know about you, but I've made money hand over fist when I flop JTx w/ JT against someone with AJ/AJs.

Also, please realize that my advice is generally to play an open preflop game, by playing starting hands that can go in a lot of speculative directions, and playing REALLY good post-flop poker. Also, let's not forget that if either of the two limpers has JJ or QQ and is disguising, I'd rather have AA-QQ, AKs, AK, KQs-56s, before ANY other pocket pair. Being 70/30 or 75/25 dog (or better) is way better than the 81/19 dog you are with little pair vs. bigger pair. If you're overpaired in the hole by someone else you're going to be about 8% to make a set by the river if you miss the flop. Assuming both the remaining cards that will make your set are still live, you'd be about 4.25% after the turn if you missed again. I would say in this situation I might even consider throwing away pairs up to at least 55 unless you call for set value and are fairly certain the BB is not going to raise.

The funniest thing about liitle pocket pairs, is that they lose a tremendous amount of their value post-flop, in multiway hands when they miss, unless everyone else misses too. Since you'll only flop your set about 10% of the time, by taking 8:1 on a pre-flop bet, the EV you're getting (Let's use a $5/10 NL game round numbers are easier to work with) with Little pair vs. Bigger pair for half a bet preflop would be: 0.9*(-5) + 0.10(40+x) where x is the amount you're likely to win if you hit your set, I would put this on average between 1/2 to the total of the pot, if we average it @ 3/4 of the pot you'd have 0.9*(-5) + 0.10*(40+(0.75)(40)) or a positive expectancy of $3.50. 35% of a big blind. Meaning it's a barely profitable play. If you figure to only win 50% of the pot extra after the flop (might be more reasonable considering in a multiway pot others can make straights and flushes and possibly even a better set then yours), the EV gets even worse: -4.5 + 0.10 (40 + (0.50)(40)) = $1.50. The play would net you a whopping $1.50 on average, 15% of the BB. I really don't like making calls with an EV that marginal. That's basically what you'd be getting with 3 callers to the flop and none of them either having an overpair, or pairing higher than you on the flop.

So maybe tighten that call up to TT-77 (or 88 if you want to play tighter).

I like this forum, it's definitely causing me to evaluate my game more, and I like it.

[ProfessorOfOuts]

Fnord:

What do you think of my small blind recommendations with 2 early limpers?

[ProfessorOfOuts]

If folded to me in the small blind, I would additionally raise with the upper half of my calls in a double limped pot, and all pocket pairs.

[jameseyb]

I see what you mean about using pot odds to justify calls when in the small blind and I will happily admit that I'll hold on to cards like QJ/JT etc when there are a lot of limpers, but I'm prepared for trouble when the flop does not go my way.

That sort of play was the source of one of my biggest leaks earlier on in my poker life (making a pair/two pair and marrying the hand) and I'm trying to avoid getting into situations like I used to get by tightening up my play.

J

[Lukie]

I'd be more conservative than that, raising only AA, KK, AKs and AQs, and calling with the remaining PPs and KQs, AJs.

SCs I'd be folding as well as my "average" hands like AT, Ax and KJ. Position's the killer.

J

Ugh, so you're raising AQs out of the SB but completing JJ and QQ?? Once in a while I'll go ultra nit style and just call with JJ, but doing it with QQ is just awful...

[Lukie]

professor,

The thought folding small pairs in an unraised pot in the SB with multiple limpers is so bad it's making my head hurt.

[Lukie]

Play from SB...

I was wondering which hands should i complete the SB with after limpers, w/o limpers against BB and when the pot has been raised from various positions...?

For example, i had a j-9 os in sb and there were two limpers, i figure its getting good odds but im gonna be OOP so what are the true value of hands in the small blind

These questions are really, really, really situation and read dependant but I'll do my best.

Raise up your big pairs. Sometimes raise other stuff. I usually raise AK in these spots, and almost always AKs. Sometimes other stuff too, but don't go crazy. You're first to act post-flop in what's likely going to be a multiway pot. Just calling with AK here sometimes is OK, and I should probably do it more often to be honest.

What to call with? Depends on lots of stuff, what I think of the players in the pot (how deep they are, how far they take marginal hands, are they calling with PP's or are they complete fish calling with Q9s, etc). But complete trash = instamuck. Hands like 58o, J4s, A3o belong in the muck every time.

Hands with potential like small pairs, Axs, suited broadways, suited connectors, 'big' o/s cards like AQo, KQo, AJo, etc. are pretty easy calls.

Hands like connectors, semi suited connected junk, etc, I'll usually call with.

if it folds to your SB, this is when it becomes really read dependant. What to do depends so much on the player, but I don't complete very often to be honest. The type of player that I'm most likely to complete against though is the type that always checks his BB and folds to a bet on the flop. Usually though I'm either raising or folding. I just fold a lot of hands here and I usually make it 3x if I'm going to play. Tight/aggro here. Lots of players suddenly become really loose/passive in these spots and I really don't understand it. *shrugs*

[Roco415]

What to call with? Depends on lots of stuff, what I think of the players in the pot (how deep they are, how far they take marginal hands, are they calling with PP's or are they complete fish calling with Q9s, etc). But complete trash = instamuck. Hands like 58o, J4s, A3o belong in the muck every time.

Hands with potential like small pairs, Axs, suited broadways, suited connectors, 'big' o/s cards like AQo, KQo, AJo, etc. are pretty easy calls.

Hands like connectors, semi suited connected junk, etc, I'll usually call with*

1. so basically if the stacks are deep enough anyhand is a profitable call because of implied odds if you can potentially double through somebody....and

2. about connectors, i find ive been losing a ton of money playing these out of position, for example ive been floppin 22-7 with a 6-7 and losing to a pair of eights, i know you shouldnt play 67 for the single pair but it seems like if ur only playing for the straight/flush, you are losing money even though you make a lot when you get str/flush because you lose out of position so many bets overall...
(i guess the only way to truly get an accurate picture is to purchase poker tracker and attempt to completely revamp my game with a little help from you, BTW thanks for all your contributions, you guys broght things up i never wouldve thought about...)

[givememyleg]

These questions are really, really, really situation and read dependant but I'll do my best.

Raise up your big pairs. Sometimes raise other stuff. I usually raise AK in these spots, and almost always AKs. Sometimes other stuff too, but don't go crazy. You're first to act post-flop in what's likely going to be a multiway pot. Just calling with AK here sometimes is OK, and I should probably do it more often to be honest.

What to call with? Depends on lots of stuff, what I think of the players in the pot (how deep they are, how far they take marginal hands, are they calling with PP's or are they complete fish calling with Q9s, etc). But complete trash = instamuck. Hands like 58o, J4s, A3o belong in the muck every time.

Hands with potential like small pairs, Axs, suited broadways, suited connectors, 'big' o/s cards like AQo, KQo, AJo, etc. are pretty easy calls.

Hands like connectors, semi suited connected junk, etc, I'll usually call with.

if it folds to your SB, this is when it becomes really read dependant. What to do depends so much on the player, but I don't complete very often to be honest. The type of player that I'm most likely to complete against though is the type that always checks his BB and folds to a bet on the flop. Usually though I'm either raising or folding. I just fold a lot of hands here and I usually make it 3x if I'm going to play. Tight/aggro here. Lots of players suddenly become really loose/passive in these spots and I really don't understand it. *shrugs*

This is something I've also wanted to bring up. This post helps a LOT Lukie... great insight in there.

[jackvance]

Also, please realize that my advice is generally to play an open preflop game, by playing starting hands that can go in a lot of speculative directions, and playing REALLY good post-flop poker. Also, let's not forget that if either of the two limpers has JJ or QQ and is disguising, I'd rather have AA-QQ, AKs, AK, KQs-56s, before ANY other pocket pair. Being 70/30 or 75/25 dog (or better) is way better than the 81/19 dog you are with little pair vs. bigger pair. If you're overpaired in the hole by someone else you're going to be about 8% to make a set by the river if you miss the flop. Assuming both the remaining cards that will make your set are still live, you'd be about 4.25% after the turn if you missed again. I would say in this situation I might even consider throwing away pairs up to at least 55 unless you call for set value and are fairly certain the BB is not going to raise.

The funniest thing about liitle pocket pairs, is that they lose a tremendous amount of their value post-flop, in multiway hands when they miss, unless everyone else misses too. Since you'll only flop your set about 10% of the time, by taking 8:1 on a pre-flop bet, the EV you're getting (Let's use a $5/10 NL game round numbers are easier to work with) with Little pair vs. Bigger pair for half a bet preflop would be: 0.9*(-5) + 0.10(40+x) where x is the amount you're likely to win if you hit your set, I would put this on average between 1/2 to the total of the pot, if we average it @ 3/4 of the pot you'd have 0.9*(-5) + 0.10*(40+(0.75)(40)) or a positive expectancy of $3.50. 35% of a big blind. Meaning it's a barely profitable play. If you figure to only win 50% of the pot extra after the flop (might be more reasonable considering in a multiway pot others can make straights and flushes and possibly even a better set then yours), the EV gets even worse: -4.5 + 0.10 (40 + (0.50)(40)) = $1.50. The play would net you a whopping $1.50 on average, 15% of the BB. I really don't like making calls with an EV that marginal. That's basically what you'd be getting with 3 callers to the flop and none of them either having an overpair, or pairing higher than you on the flop.

Wtf is all this math? While there are probably no mathematical errors, it's not realistic at all to the actual game of poker.

[Lukie]

What to call with? Depends on lots of stuff, what I think of the players in the pot (how deep they are, how far they take marginal hands, are they calling with PP's or are they complete fish calling with Q9s, etc). But complete trash = instamuck. Hands like 58o, J4s, A3o belong in the muck every time.

Hands with potential like small pairs, Axs, suited broadways, suited connectors, 'big' o/s cards like AQo, KQo, AJo, etc. are pretty easy calls.

Hands like connectors, semi suited connected junk, etc, I'll usually call with*

1. so basically if the stacks are deep enough anyhand is a profitable call because of implied odds if you can potentially double through somebody....and

2. about connectors, i find ive been losing a ton of money playing these out of position, for example ive been floppin 22-7 with a 6-7 and losing to a pair of eights, i know you shouldnt play 67 for the single pair but it seems like if ur only playing for the straight/flush, you are losing money even though you make a lot when you get str/flush because you lose out of position so many bets overall...
(i guess the only way to truly get an accurate picture is to purchase poker tracker and attempt to completely revamp my game with a little help from you, BTW thanks for all your contributions, you guys broght things up i never wouldve thought about...)

no!!!

1. so basically if the stacks are deep enough anyhand is a profitable call because of implied odds if you can potentially double through somebody....and

no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol, you have the worst possible position, add a shit hand to that and you're REVERSE implied odds are excutiatingly terrible. Don't play trash from the SB.

and also playing 67 on a 227 flop is pretty much having no hand at all. Really bad top pair with no kicker out of position in a multiway pot = no hand.

[Miffed22001]

Play from SB...

1. Know where you are post flop
2. Dont be dominated if raising.
3. lukie's evaluations of implied odds etc.

[jameseyb]

I've got to explain the decisions I make at the SB.

I've been working on a crib sheet to stop myself making stupid plays and donking money away and I had to set myself limits on the hands I would play from the various parts of the table.

However, as it is designed to be a very quick reference sheet, I had to make a lot of changes to make it easy (and quick) to read. One of the main things was lumping hands into ranks (Premium, good, medium average, High PP, low PP and SCs) and also making the positions general (early/blinds, MP, LP/Button).

I appreciate that there are going to be some holes in this generalisation, but it's there as a guide only and is read-dependent. It's also there to stop leaks, so it may need tweaking.

If anyone wants to comment on it, let me know and I will try and post it up for comments. That way, you guys can let me know where I've gone wrong with my assumptions!

J

[krimson]

x is the amount you're likely to win if you hit your set, I would put this on average between 1/2 to the total of the pot

If you stack someone you'll win about 20 times the pre-flop pot. So if you stack someone even every tenth time you flop a set from the SB your profit is already waaay above your estimate.

The play would net you a whopping $1.50 on average, 15% of the BB. I really don't like making calls with an EV that marginal.

Me on the other hand, I don't like giving away money by folding when calling is profitable.