Is This A Young Person's Game?

[Jiggus]

I know that some will berate me for my usual negativity and despondency, and term this as just another excuse for my poor play, but I've been noting over my time on this forum, that the people who seem to be winning the most and moving up the quickest are, by my judgement, kids.

Is there something to this? Is it like most other sports or games, including lawn bowling, where youth has the definite edge?

I realise that there are older pros out there, but that is irrelvant to my discussion topic: are older novices -- like my aging self -- simply at a disadvantage due to a number of physcial and psychological reasons?

Of course, it could be the demographics of this particular site, or it could be that I'm making a grandiose assumption, but in any case, I hope for a lively discussion.

Jigs

[fjuanl]

its just easier to learn these days. anyone whos motivated enough can gain years and years of experience thru talking with good players, training websites, etc. imo its the 20 somethings who have had the most success because they are a little more mature than the newcomer who thinks he can outplay anyone on the planet. they also have more time to pratice when they dont have kids to look after

[givememyleg]

Yeah fjuanl nailed it. Back in the day imagine how hard it was to learn about poker. You didn't have online poker, poker forums, as many poker books, and poker definitely wasn't on tv as much. In order for these players to get better from experience, they would have to go to their casino. They couldn't load up pokerstars and 8 table. I don't know the actual rate but online you see many more hands per hour (anyone know an estimate?). If you multi-table, you're seeing 2x, 4x, 8x, as many hands per hour. This is why a lot of the winners these days are younger people vs back in the day.

But in relation to your post, there is no reason at all you can't learn as fast as someone 18 - early 20s. Poker is a sport for anybody, any age. You can start at age 45, just as someone can start at age 15. If all things equal, you would be as good as him at age 20, if you were 50... if you get what I'm saying.

[Pelion]

You probably just dont have as much time as us students

Ive pretty much had a 2 month break from playing poker except for a few sessions in there because ive been so busy. Just got back to it this week. In that time so many people have overtaken me its not even funny.
Just put as much time into it as you can (or want to) and eventually youll get there. Obviously the more you put in the quicker you get there.

[Warpe]

are older novices -- like my aging self -- simply at a disadvantage due to a number of physcial and psychological reasons?

No, I don't think so, not unless you're one of those old farts that can't learn new things. I'm 47 and started playing a little over a year ago. I'm looking forward to crushing the game well into retirement.

[jameseyb]

What would you rather do? Play golf (another game where the average age is way in excess of other sports) and ruin a good walk, or learn to play poker and use retirement to make a lot of money?

Ok, you don't get to socialise that much, but there are some very good older players out there who, from what I have seen, tend to be very consistent and solid players.

Not that I am assuming you're over 60 but...

J

[biondino]

The older you are, the more you have an awareness of what actually matters in life, and what not to get stressed over. You know yourself better; you're more willing to accept your own weaknesses, and make efforts to improve them. You suffer less from the impetuousity of youth, the need for everything to happen now or sooner, and the conviction that you know everything there is to know. So I think a 30-year old who has a hunger to learn the game is likely to be able to use life's experiences to help him more than a 20-year-old can; I assume it would be even more the case for a 40-year-old.

The only downside that this might have is that older people are more likely to be risk-averse, and at times this could be a disadvantage. But mostly prudence will be a good thing, in the early stages especially.

As has been said above, it's the youngsters who, by and large, have a dearth of responsibilities and time pressures that must prevent a lot of older people from really giving their hobby the time they'd like to.

[Irisheyes]

I don't think its nessecarily youth that helps, it's more a willingness to allow yourself to become absorbed by poker to enough of an extent that you learn relly quickly. I think older people have more things going on and more responsibilities. For example all I do all week is either college or poker on weekdays, or friends or poker at weekends. Its like 30 hours of poker a week, and if I'm not playing I'm thinking about it or reading poker or FTR or whatever.

I also think we are alot more relaxed when it comes to comfortable risk and putting a value on money.

[jyms]

Is it possibly the money respect as well. Not trying to bash but I have been working 20 years since school.It's hard to not look at the chips as money. I play within my roll but I don't know if 40+ guys like me with a mortgage,2 car payments, children and full time work can have the same no fear. I play as aggro as I think I need but i really don't want to make another deposit. I don't have my whole life infront of me. 20 something life is about no fear isn't it. I think my grey matter has changed in the last 20 years to a self preservation kind of thinking and not only do I have to learn how to play poker but I have to step out of my personality to play it well.

sorry Irish I guess you kinda got that in first. as I was typing, nice new avatar by the way.

[Irisheyes]

Is it possibly the money respect as well. Not trying to bash but I have been working 20 years since school.It's hard to not look at the chips as money. I play within my roll but I don't know if 40+ guys like me with a mortgage,2 car payments, children and full time work can have the same no fear. I play as aggro as I think I need but i really don't want to make another deposit. I don't have my whole life infront of me. 20 something life is about no fear isn't it. I think my grey matter has changed in the last 20 years to a self preservation kind of thinking and not only do I have to learn how to play poker but I have to step out of my personality to play it well.

sorry Irish I guess you kinda got that in first. as I was typing, nice new avatar by the way.

Thanks, I ditched the other bitch, she was too much work.

This is why I believe there is so much value in starting at micro stakes like 2NL no matter how much cash you have lying around. Anyone can throw around $2 an not worry too much (if you cant then don't play poker) but as you progress fron the bottom rung upwards you allow your mentality towards money/chips time to grow in tandem to your bankroll.

[flomo]

great avatars irish and Tjyms

iwas staring at my screen so long that i thought i should post something.

i'm over 30.
bankroll management is very important to me. as a married, father and non-student type, playing within my bankroll helps me be aggro(slaa) at the tables.

and yes you are at a disadvantage because of age , but get in there and take their chips anyways
little highschool weasals

good luck
flomo

[Rondavu]

Age has less to do with it than overwriting bad habits IMO. I think a lot of older players maybe absorbed the game from the wrong angle. There's a certain order for learning how to PWN. From learning Tagg to experimenting with Lagg, and knowing when it's time to be Loose Passive for a profit.

Also, as mentioned in a famous old thread, your personality type has a lot to do with how good you get, and how fast. Your psychological makeup. What is it INTP's who dominate?

Finally, many older people don't invest the energy into it since it's "just a game". Problem with that is it's a game that can make you more money that most jobs. I'm a person who doesn't get into video games at all because I get no value out of them aside from short term entertainment, which I admit can be cool. I get into poker however, because it keeps food on the table.

[Irisheyes]

This is where you OAPs should be:

[yorib]

Age is all relative, right? That being said, I'm 30 married (no children), and, along with my wife, have financial responsibilities galore. I just picked up this game in earnest a few months ago and feel I'm "ahead of the curve". On average, I play about 200 hands a day and have probably read just about every poker book available at the local library.

The internet is dominated by college kids because they have the time, money and a lack of financial obligations. So they will, en masse, make the largest gains in the shortest amount of time. They also don't have other pressures in the back of their minds while they are playing.

All in all, I think it's a wash. Analytically, I'd have been sharper 10 years ago, emotionally, there's no comparison, I can handle anything this game throws at me.

I think the biggest impedement for "older" players would be the "powers that be" (i.e. wife) who fears her husband will become addicted and "lose it all". That's a kind of pressure that younger players simply don't have. (I think that's the case regardless of income/bankroll).

Jiggus: Am I old or young?

[flomo]

Also, as mentioned in a famous old thread, your personality type has a lot to do with how good you get, and how fast. Your psychological makeup. What is it INTP's who dominate?

Where do I find this thread?

Finally, many older people don't invest the energy into it since it's "just a game".
Right on the money Rondavu

great pic irish lol

[jameseyb]

Old people in Aber? More like the Isle of Man!

Ok, time to throw my hat in the ring. I'm 32 and play poker when I can. Bankroll is important to me as I own a house and have bills to pay. Luckily I have no kids and a crap car, so I don't need to worry about money for them and I can write off my losses as being less than a night out on the beers.

Learning is another matter. I work long hours during the week and only get to see the GF at the weekend. My job is technical and I need to spend a lot of time working out ways of breaking stuff. Ok, I talk to Biondino on Messenger about poekr most days, but I can't play during the day and I don't have time to read at work. I rarely get the chance to play at night either thanks to DIY.

But with all those things against me, I still want to learn, which is why I talk to people, read this forum and _try_ and play as often as possible. I see it as a life skill. Hell, if I get good enough, it could change my life!

J

[biondino]

I rarely get the chance to play at night either thanks to DIY.

This is a sentence which will never, ever cross my lips.

Thing is - to me, poker IS a game and will continue to be one. The financial side is a lovely side-effect, but the only difference to my life it's made so far is that I nominally bought two laptops and my gf's flight to the US with what I describe as my "poker winnings" (I don't actually withdraw my BR for this - I would have been able to afford all the above if I'd never won a penny, but it hopefully makes poker appeart a worthwhile hobby to my sketpical-to-disapproving other half I can't imagine a time in my life where I either play professionally, or I rely on the income it brings in even though I work full-time at another job.

[Warpe]

On the subject of learning the game: To become proficient, I really believe you have to devote as much time and intellectual energy to learning poker as you would to a difficult college or university course. It's really a process of accretion of layers of knowledge until, one day, you wake up and discover you actually know how to play this incredible game at a level of competence that allows you to make money fairly consistently.

To that end, for those that feel they don't have the time -MAKE THE TIME. If you don't apply yourself, you'll just muddle along at a level of mediocrity that leaves you frustrated.

[jyms]

On the subject of learning the game: To become proficient, I really believe you have to devote as much time and intellectual energy to learning poker as you would to a difficult college or university course. It's really a process of accretion of layers of knowledge until, one day, you wake up and discover you actually know how to play this incredible game at a level of competence that allows you to make money fairly consistently

And I thought figuring out a post flop game was hard. These are 200NL words in a 5NL forum. Warpe, If I didn't know you were cnadian I'd think this is a foriegn language.

[Warpe]

On the subject of learning the game: To become proficient, I really believe you have to devote as much time and intellectual energy to learning poker as you would to a difficult college or university course. It's really a process of accretion of layers of knowledge until, one day, you wake up and discover you actually know how to play this incredible game at a level of competence that allows you to make money fairly consistently

And I thought figuring out a post flop game was hard. These are 200NL words in a 5NL forum. Warpe, If I didn't know you were cnadian I'd think this is a foriegn language.

lol

Seriously, this is a beginners forum, and the people who come to FTR come to learn the game. You might as well know up front what's required to really get skilled at it. Stakes are really irrelevant. Besides, if you get to be any good, you'll be moving up in stakes in no time.

[andy-akb]

I actually just turned 18 on Tuesday, so Im on of the young guys on this forum. I think the main points have already been made in this thread, the younger guys have more time on their hands and can therefore dedicate more time to learning and playing that those with more commitments. I graduate highschool in a week or so and then its summer, Im not getting a job because I can make several times more than any summer job would offer, but still not enough for somebody with a wife, kids, house, etc. to live on. That right there is a huge advantage for me, I simply dont have much to worry about and can spend 20+ hours a week playing and learning. So really I think it has less to do with age as a number, but more the commitments that come with that age.

[geoffm33]

I actually just turned 18 on Tuesday

Happy Birthday!

[Warpe]

I actually just turned 18 on Tuesday

Happy Birthday!

I turn 48 tomorrow. I wonder how many Geminis play poker.

[dzeanah]

I turn 48 tomorrow. I wonder how many Geminis play poker.

I'm gonna go with total # poker players / 12, personally.

[jukejointroach]

well with a gemini it would be a slightly higher number.

[Jiggus]

Well, that certainly generated a lot of feedback in a short time! Great! I'm really happy with the responses. I thought someone would be really negative and roast me for being a wimp or something. But I always think the most horrible thing will happen.

I'm 42, I think. Just lost a swack of money on selling my apartment in Holland. I've got one kid, and one on the way. I'm thinking of moving back to Canada, so that's even more finacial discombobulation on the horizon. I look to poker as a sort of higer learning that can pay off in a modest to big way, given time and study.

I like what Warpe says. I, too, am obsessed by this game and I DO want to make it at least a part time income. In all honesty, I think it's the only thing that has promise financially. Although, I may just be a moron when it comes to poker, and perhaps my goals are unattainable.

I find that I learn a lot from you young punks out there. It certainly is true that youth has the ability to be more aggressive in betting, in this case, but I am really trying to learn how to change my game to all sort of styles, depending on the tables.

I play, if I'm lucky and really willing not to sleep much, about 2,000 hands a week on average. Of late, I haven't played any. But better not to play than play when unable (drunk, tired, stressed, etcetera). In these times, I read and think about the game.

No need to say it, but this is the best poker site out there.

Thanks for your collective time and input.

[bode]

No need to say it, but this is the best poker site out there.

LOL... is this some sort of subliminal message?

[cardsman1992]

I actually just turned 18 on Tuesday

Happy Birthday!

Happy Birthday Andy!

Warpe wrote:

I turn 48 tomorrow.

Happy Birthday Warpe! Missed my birthday by a few weeks now...

I just turned 32. Never played more than once a year in a friendly family game until the last year or so. Never played seriously for money until earlier this year. Found out exactly how much I had (and still have) to learn, but I feel like I am getting better each time I sit down. I have a great love for this game. The mathematics and logic to it, the luck that turns all of the logic upside down, the art of it, and the ability to make money at a hobby all appeal to me. I am on my second marriage (luckily I have an understanding wife who doesn't mind my playing), one 4 year old and trying to work on another. Financially I have responsibilities but not overwhelming burdens. However, throughout my life one of my biggest fears was being broke. That being said, when I play within my roll, I have no fear of making a bet, or playing aggressively. The only times I have ever felt that fear is when I played at a game too big for my roll.

Point being, you are never too old to be good at this game. Doyle Brunson has nerves of steel at 70 something.

You can't play with money. You have to play with chips. It makes a difference in the "fear factor" if there is one.

GL, Jiggus

[Lukie]

I realise that there are older pros out there, but that is irrelvant to my discussion topic: are older novices -- like my aging self -- simply at a disadvantage due to a number of physcial and psychological reasons?

I think a lot of older novices are at a disadvantage because they never really learned the game, or were taught/learned poorly and now they are stuck in their ways. And people put way too much emphasis on stuff like, ok, i'm in this position with this action, what's my range? as if there's a certain group of hands it's always correct to do this, where it's always correct to do that, and stuff like that.

If you want to take your game to a new level, focus more on stuff like position, agression, and reads. And for god's sake, just forget you ever heard of the stupid, idiotic 10:1 PP rule. Seriously, it makes no sense and has no practical application to a real game. Just stuff like that holds people back where bad advice is drilled into their minds and they accept it as true.

Also, like any forum, there's going to be a lot of bad advice on FTR. But it seems like on this site, that bad advice isn't attacked like it is elsewhere. It's almost as if people don't want to hurt other people's feelings so they let it slide. Some posters probably can't differentiate between good advice and blatantly terrible advice because they just aren't experienced enough to do so. And that's kind of why I come off as harsh when I come across something that's blatantly wrong, because stuff like that can poison a lot of people's minds without them even realizing it. And then they defend it because they think it's some holy grail...

[andy-akb]

Also, like any forum, there's going to be a lot of bad advice on FTR. But it seems like on this site, that bad advice isn't attacked like it is elsewhere. It's almost as if people don't want to hurt other people's feelings so they let it slide. Some posters probably can't differentiate between good advice and blatantly terrible advice because they just aren't experienced enough to do so. And that's kind of why I come off as harsh when I come across something that's blatantly wrong, because stuff like that can poison a lot of people's minds without them even realizing it. And then they defend it because they think it's some holy grail...

I agree with this a lot actually and find myself doing it. Sometimes Ill be reading a thread and there will be 3 posts all agreeing with somethin g I disagree with and I usually just wont post something unless I think its so wrong that I need to point it out. This gives our forum a much more "community" feel to it, but that isnt always the best way. Over at 2+2 you will see incredibly heated arguments, but they are all started to try to discourage the spread of bad advice. So while it may be more "hostile" there, sometimes its easier to see what the good and bad advice is.

[jyms]

I turn 48 tomorrow. I wonder how many Geminis play poker.

happy birthday. mine was the 25th

I'm gonna go with total # poker players / 12, personally.

This could be an interesting thought, with gemini's ability to hide true feelings, have multiple personalities and great adaptability, It may favour some signs over others to play poker. I'm willing to bet that a gemini don't play pot odds, implied odds and count outs the same as some, but play "feel" and reads more, even with mathematical skills. It's just the way we are.

[Warpe]

I'm willing to bet that a gemini don't play pot odds, implied odds and count outs the same as some, but play "feel" and reads more, even with mathematical skills. It's just the way we are.

You've been watching me, haven't you?

[salsa4ever]

Also, as mentioned in a famous old thread, your personality type has a lot to do with how good you get, and how fast. Your psychological makeup. What is it INTP's who dominate?

So THAT'S WHY I RULE!!!!!

I've always wanted to be ENTJ or something... but now I finally found a reason to be INTP

Sux for being a dancer though

And at 25 you're at the height of your powers. There's no doubt about it. Even Doyle Brunson isn't as good as he once was (according to Barry Greenstein, and I believe him). Does that mean you can't be good? No, because 90% of your powers is more than enough to make good money at poker... hell, by surfing the web and playing heaps of tables and playing when I'm tired I'm lucky to get 70%. But it's a disadvantage nonetheless

[biondino]

Any 25-year-old who believes things can only go downhill is going to be VERY embarrassed at believing such nonsense in a few years time

[Warpe]

...at 25 you're at the height of your powers...

LMAO

Nothing you know, young Skywalker.

[Lukie]

Also, like any forum, there's going to be a lot of bad advice on FTR. But it seems like on this site, that bad advice isn't attacked like it is elsewhere. It's almost as if people don't want to hurt other people's feelings so they let it slide. Some posters probably can't differentiate between good advice and blatantly terrible advice because they just aren't experienced enough to do so. And that's kind of why I come off as harsh when I come across something that's blatantly wrong, because stuff like that can poison a lot of people's minds without them even realizing it. And then they defend it because they think it's some holy grail...

I agree with this a lot actually and find myself doing it. Sometimes Ill be reading a thread and there will be 3 posts all agreeing with somethin g I disagree with and I usually just wont post something unless I think its so wrong that I need to point it out. This gives our forum a much more "community" feel to it, but that isnt always the best way. Over at 2+2 you will see incredibly heated arguments, but they are all started to try to discourage the spread of bad advice. So while it may be more "hostile" there, sometimes its easier to see what the good and bad advice is.

Heh, this has come up a million times. My loyalty is with FTR but I don't understand why people constantly bash 2p2 like this. I've had nothing but good experiences over there, and I've actually been involved in a lot more controversy at FTR then 2p2.

Now, the poker environment is definately tougher and more hostile. But I wish our strategy forums were more like that. It almost seems to have an effect on the players as the 2p2 players are generally tougher, more agressive, and better players then the ones found here. I'm doing my best to change that.

[Rabid Dog]

I'm 46. We just need more sleep.