Re-Adjusting from $200NL into $25NL,Having Issues (long)

[throx]

Hi Im a first time poster but I read these forums alot and its basically where I learned to play the game. Recently I had to buy a new car due to problems with my old and it forced me to withdraw a very large portion of my bankroll. Let me give some background.

Originally I started my bankroll at $50, played $5 SNGs until I hit $150 and then I started playing $25NL (Im a multi-tabler, I always played 4 tables at a time, I have minor ADD so I think playing more tables also helped me from getting restless). My bankroll increased very fast in $25NL, I had one day alone where I had ridiculous luck and made almost $600. I ended up only spending a week at $25NL until I had over $1000 and so I decided to move up. Things went very well at $50NL after an initial few days of just breaking even and learning how to adjust my play and everything continued to go well even into $100NL and eventually $200NL. I had been at $200NL for 2 weeks (making more money on avg than playing $100NL even tho I dont think I am tottally comfortable in 200 yet) when I had to withdraw much of my bankroll, all the way back down to $250 which I figured was a good enough broll for 25NL.

My play changed alot from my days at $25NL by the time I got to 200NL obviously. Now Im having some problems readjusting to 25NL. It's been almost a week and I havent made much money there. I read alot about people moving up levels and having alot of readjustments but not down so Im wondering if any of you or anyone you know has been in a similar predicament and what advice helped to get them through.

Im asking for a general answer but if you think specific tracker info would help alot I can provide that as well. Ifhis helps when I played $100NL and $200NL my style was usually a LAG (I found this the easiest way to double through people since I observed that most players here were very tight and they expected the other players to be of a similar fashion so misrepresenting hands preflop and trying to break players who overplayed their big pairs was my main goal). Playing a similar style in 25NL is not working well,specifically almost nobody plays the players so I am not getting nearly as much action, furthermore since the amount of money in the stacks is lower it seems to be harder to get paid off enough when your misrepresented hands do hit. Also unlike at the higher limits where I found most players come in with a full-stack or near there are tons of idiots who buy in for $5 and only play premium hands, it is easy enough to avoid losing money to them but it slows down the game alot basically puts the nail in the coffin of heavy LAG because they dont have shit to pay me off so I cant call or raise drawing hands when its jsut these idiots in the pot.

Since I figured LAG would not be very profitable here I changed to a TAG style of play experimenting with different sets of starting hands for periods of time to see if one was superior. Sadly I found my most profitable TAG starting hand set to be one I would have shunned at higher limits; only playing PP (all of them since sets pretty much always pay off at this level for alot, "set-hunting") , AK and TJs. Other than those hands there was not a large enough margin between the strength you had to show preflop to fold the idiots and the amount you could get paid off. (TJs seemed odd to me at first since it doesnt really fit with the theme of the other cards but I found it played basically like a mid PP and also like them was easy to discard if you didnt hit).

This really frustrated me because the style of play, TAG and very few starting hands, was almost the same as playing with $5 like all those idiots, I was very unlikely to get payed off anymore than the small stacks on non-set hands. Yes it profits due to the stupidity of the players since they dont realize how tight your being but I am making far fewer BB/hr than I was at the higher limits. Ive seen some websites advertise this style of low-stack play so I even wondered if maybe I should give it a try, buying in with minimum and trying to double up on premium hands, but even at $50NL it just barely makes money (was about 60/40 depending alot on if there was a idiot or two at the table who would call with a marginal hand or just luck sometimes if there were too many raises behind me for everyone to fold) and I imagine at higher levels the idiots think out to the point where it actually loses money.

So in summary Id really like to know if there is a faster way to make money at 25NL than just playing the super-TAG game (id still much rather do it with a full stack tho so my sets pay off in full) and basically set-hunting or getting people to call your bigger pairs for alot pre-flop. Its been such a grind so far and im starting to actually dislike the game, which is a far cry from when I was playing $100NL and $200NL and I usually couldnt wait to get some play time in. Anyways this got pretty long, sorry about that, but thanks in advance for any advice and feel free to ask me any questions.

EDIT: also when I originally was at 25NL there was a major difference (this was awhile back since I took a couple month break due to a vacation between $50nl and 100nl) in the makeup of the tables, the majority of players were buying in for a good amount id say $15 to the full stack of $25. Only one or two usually had $5-$10 or lower, but now due to that stupid chris fergusen experiment everyone thinks they can get rich buying in for $5 and over 50% of the players at 25NL are idiots like this, even more at peak times. Finding a table with less than 5 of these guys takes awhile, and since they move around like crazy (once they double through they leave usually) its not even worth the effort since they will come to you like flies on shit. lastly im not belittling them because they are beating me, in fact with super-tag they are a big source of the income for me here, im pissed at them because they are limiting me from making more income here in a way that seems to me more of a flaw in the poker-site than in my play.

[arkana]

Hi and welcome to the forums

It sounds like your biggest problem is coping with the fact that you are playing for less money (thrill is gone, boredom sets in) and that there are less opportunities for creative play. The best thing you can do is to treat it like a video game, if camping for big hands is the way to beat the stage then do that instead of bashing your head against a wall trying to play tricky. If there are a lot of short stacks then you will definitely have to tighten up preflop. Maybe playing SNGs will be more exciting for you?

Good luck

[Lukie]

only playing PP (all of them since sets pretty much always pay off at this level for alot, "set-hunting") , AK and TJs.

[I can't believe I'm telling someone this], but are these honestly the only hands you are playing? You really need to open your game up. Like if it folds to you in late position and you have , you aren't making the ridiculously easy opening raise?

FWIW, those hands account for a whopping 7.4% of total hands. I can't imagine anyone with half a brain ever giving you action for a big pot unelss they had the nuts or close to it.

Don't take this as a contradictory statement to what I said above (because in order to beat any sort of a competant game, you will need to loosen up), but with short stacks at the table, you do need to tighten up a bit, especially if they are on your left.

In truth, I find it surprising that you could beat the NL100 and NL200 games but are struggling at NL25. I suppose it could just take a little bit of adjusting? For example, the NL100 game on stars often plays really weak/tight, and I think some of the regulars in that game (it's been a little while since I played in it) would have a tough time in a looser game where people wouldn't fold to your c-bets 4 out of 5 times.

[Lukie]

Also it could just be that you havn't put that many hands in (you said it's been almost a week), so maybe you've just been put into some real tough spots.

I'm really tired so I don't know if I said anything about this in my previous post, but you really should be able to beat these stakes playing a solid, tight, ABC-type game. I don't mean set-hunting, but just playing tough, solid, agressive poker.

[biondino]

So what kind of BB/100 are you experiencing? If it's like 10 and you're piossed of it's not 20+, then you need to relax and be happy with that. If it's 1 (and you have a big enough hand sample for it to be statistically meaningful, which I doubt) then either you're been unlucky or you haven't yet found the right way to win.

As everyone else said, solid, ABC poker forms an essential and straightforward base for a winning game at this level. As you get used to it, you will add in your own tweaks and tricks, and hopefully win more.

But I can't imagine you'll be staying around - at 5BB/100 you'll need 15,000 hands to go from $250 to $1000, i.e. to be rolled for $50NL, and I get the feleing you'll rattle them off in a couple of weeks!

[throx]

To answer Lukie briefly there is a fundamental problem alot of the time in playing AQ at a table where u have 6 people with $5 stacks who only play premium hands and always push all in at some point in almost every hand they play, and usually either on the flop or before it. Of course like u mentioned it depends alot on position but say I get a couple limpers from the $5 group. If I try to muscle them out of the pot with AQ chances are one of them will push all in and if i called id almost certainly be behind. If I limp Id have to hit the flop pretty hard because otherwise Id just be folding when one or more of them push on the flop. Also in 25Nl being folded to in late position seems to be a great rariety, there are usually more limpers than the special olympics. Of course I can punish limpers when im in good position similar to ur sugestion, but only if they have some money, I cant be trying to push people around who have $5. Lastly since many of these guys play by the rule of 99-AA and AK only with AQ id find myself dominated or behind almost every time.

One thing I have started doing, and im not sure if this is good or bad (comments are appreciated) is trying to weasel my way into as many hands as possible that the low stacks are absent for, and then get very lose during these hands since if there are alot of low-stacks at the table the other players no matter how inept they are will have tightened up to a degree, and usually dont pay close attention to the fact that there are no low stacks in the current hand. I find it works pretty well as long as I have some notes on the player so i can avoid calling stations, i can basically always fold out tptk but most of the people who get an overpair or two-pair or better, even in an unraised pot will comit themselves at 25nl unless they have like $40+ in their stack.

[WhooFleuryScores]

Ironically I actually enjoy playing the Chris Ferguson short stack wanna-bes.Although I have been on the receiving end of some suckouts thanks to their shortstack though.

[KingLizard]

Ironically I actually enjoy playing the Chris Ferguson short stack wanna-bes.Although I have been on the receiving end of some suckouts thanks to their shortstack though.

I have to agree with WFS on this one. In my 25NL experience at Hollywood Poker, there DO seem to be more short stacks coming in and now I learn here that there's a reason. But I don't mind taking the $5 and $10 stacks from these folks. Most of the time, they are pushing with AJ and below, KQ, KJ, and anything else that pairs on the flop.

When they push, usually the pot is not that large to begin with. So I just make the decision to call or not based on my hand. Sure there are suckouts, but seldom to they have the best hand going into the turn/river. Just my experience (15K hands .. 10PTBB/100).

[bair]

im playing 4-table LAG 25nl and running at 18 bb/100

[renegaderob1]

Welcome throx.

I know exactly how you feel mate. I went from scrapping it out at 25NL/.5-1Limit to 100NL and 3/6limit in the first four months of play; then I hit a massive swing where I nearly busted and was forced way back down to 5NL (kept away from limit at this point in time) and struggled.

When you go from pots where the average pot size is $50+ to a limit where you're full stack is lower than one average bet at the limits you used to play, the excitement kinda starts to dissapear.

It is tough re-adjusting, not because the game is 'harder' to beat, or that much different, but because the limits you are playing for are not that stimulating and play seems much more boring.

To get my roll going again, I decided I would stop sticking to one site and try bonus whoring. In the space of a couple of months, my roll started grow. Fast. Now I am back up to 50-100NL, 100PL omaha and 2/4stud (as I am clearing a few really large $1k bonuses).

I know it's not a readjustment to your game, but I suggest bonus whoring if you want to move up again a bit more quickly. Just check out some of the links at FTR room reviews as well as the bonus whoring forum here

oh, and gl

[THaC]

im playing 4-table LAG 25nl and running at 18 bb/100

That's easy to do when your A2 sucks out on AA - from IRC earlier.

[bair]

haha tru dat

[pgil]

i think you are giving the short stacks waaayy too much credit for having a hand. sure there are some that are only playing premium hands, but they are easy to spot. then there are others that will call pf and push any flop, and if you see them do it enough, just call them with your second pair, underpair, or ace high once in a while. you will be pleasantly surprised by the hands that they flip over. had one short stack do this three times in a row to me when he was in the blinds, on the third time I called with AQ on a K92 board, he flipped over 45s and I held up. they dont always hit the flops. and if you see these same players make any move other than AI on the flop, that will be with a hand, so you can loosen your calling requirements for when they do push.
they are buying in short because they suck ass and dont want to lose all of their money when they make a dumb ass play. you said that you started out playing SNG's, treat the shorties like you would a short stack in a tourney. i have found them to be an endless source of profit, though a bit slower than if they had a larger stack. and now I have rambled enough

[pgil]

also, if you find a true maniac shortstack, try and sit directly on his right. you know what he is going to do, so you dont need position on him because you arent worried about him. this way you get to see how the rest of the table reacts to his push, and play accordingly.
its like in a low stakes limit game, if you can find one of those people who will bet/raise every single time without fail (they are around), then sit directly to his right, and you will be permanently on the button. you act last every betting round.

[twosevoff]

Move to NL25 6max on party and play a semi-tight-aggressive game. Raise 88+, AJ+, KQ, suited big cards, and (optionally) tight suited connectors and suited aces from position, and limp and call raises with 22-77 for sets. Play solid ABC poker after the flop and watch the money come from the fish to you.