Positional Play at Micro-Limits

[Khabbi]

I've read all the starting hand guides and know the theory behind why not to play suited connectors out of position (cause the odds aren't necessarily there to make them profitable).

However, at the super loose, super passive $2NL tables that I play at, I find that limping in any position with pretty much any coordinated holding (connectors suited or not, suited gappers, any two face cards, AXs) is profitable because there are so many multi-way pots.

It feels to me that folding any of these holdings even in early position is -EV because of the huge implied odds that limping fish provide.

I guess my question is, am I a fish, or does this theory make sense? Obviously when I move up I'll want to tighten up. I think seeing 30% of flops at the micro-limits can be profitable as long as you play the odds post-flop.

I also find it almost useless to c-bet or bluff at these stakes.

[dpe8598]

It depends, there are certain hands you still shouldn't play because even an ideal flop w/ those hands against numerous limpers is very dangerous. For example, lets take 4-7 offsuit. Are you going to chase your straight draw? You are going to have to be super careful about doing so, because your straight simply cannot be the best possible hand. This makes a difference.

Also, what about when you get 2 pair w/ your 4-7, but then get a lot of action? These are the nasty situations that playing these rag hands puts you in. You want to limp w/ hands that can't cost you much money, but can make you a lot. For example, 6-7 suited is nice because you can hit a straight that is the nuts, period. You can't do this w/ a lot of these marginal hands. It seems like splitting hairs, but it makes a big difference.

[martindcx1e]

You shouldn't be playing those hands in early position because they can't stand a decent raise unless you are a post-flop god. Don't develop bad habits.

[Lukie]

I don't know about you but if I'm in a pot with 47o (which basically means I'm the BB in a limped pot), I have no worries about a 2 card straight being no good. it's the nuts on a 563 board and only 79 beats it on a 568 board. I'm much more concerned about losing a big pot with trips and especially so with bottom 2.

[Lukie]

Also I really think people take limping with hands they wouldn't play way too far on these types of tables. I'll admit that I find extra limps here and there with suited/connected garbage, small pairs OOP, Axs, etc., but I still try to be a tough, solid, AGRESSIVE player. But games like this do play differently then a tough table, thats for sure. It's all about adapting.

[Lukie]

also, khabbi, your post really has nothing to do with position .

[dpe8598]

I hear what you are saying Lukie, and I'm going to play that hand of course, I was just trying to give a few examples of where you can get in trouble w/ that hand. I think you can play these hands better at higher limits than lower limits personally, just because you can actually bluff pots.

[Lukie]

my vpip with 47o over last >100k hands: .81

The majority of that I'm sure is leading out from the BB on favorable flops, or perhaps making a button raise into tight playeres or something similar.

[dpe8598]

Exactly, these moves are typically not +ev at lower levels. Or, even if they are, I don't recommend them to those trying to learn some basic strategy. As a general rule, do not play garbage, especially from early position.

[ekillian]

also, khabbi, your post really has nothing to do with position .

He's talking about limping those hands from EP. That's where position comes in.
And khabbi it is definitely not -ev to fold the types of hands you were describing. It's still the way to go.

[Pelion]

At super passive tables im limping Axs and SCs from any position. The problem is you very rarely find tables that are that passive. Even low stakes tables often have at least one maniac on. If the table conditions are good though then you give up too much by folding these hands in EP.

[ekillian]

I also limp Axs from any position. One key in doing this profitably, and it should be obvious, is not to get carried away when you flop another ace.

[martindcx1e]

I also limp Axs from any position. One key in doing this profitably, and it should be obvious, is not to get carried away when you flop another ace.

Do you do this in any game or just super-passive games? I can't see this being profitable in anything but the most passive of games which, as Pelion pointed out, are pretty rare.

[nutsinho]

You are going to have to be super careful about doing so, because your straight simply cannot be the best possible hand.

O RLY!!!!!

[biondino]

FTRers should have a vP$IP of 100% with 74o otherwise their chances to appear in the 740 thread will be -EV.