Never being stacked w/ TPTK?

[Ebene]

I have seen lots of advice on this board that you should never risk your entire stack to TPTK. And as my game has progressed, I have taken that advice and progressed past the donk stages of regularly donking off my stack to the TP set hunters.

But lately when playing against certain players, I am beginning to feel that this advice needs to be ... modified. If a player knows that I am never willing to risk my entire stack to TPTK, he stands to win a lot of money for me, because I will have TPTK much more often than I am going to have 2-pair or better. And it seems like a lot of LAGs are profitting from this mentality.

If I really won't risk my entire stack on TPTK, and everyone knows this and plays accordingly, then I probably shouldn't raise AK-AQ to begin with.

So I am beginning to rethink this a little and trying to adjust my game accordingly. I made a couple of gutsy call a couple days ago on the turn for 24BB and then on river for 64BB at $50NL with AJ on a J high board because it just seemed like he was betting too much if he really wanted to get paid off, and sure enough he was betting w/ air.

But then I lost a stack yesterday because I was sure some LAG was just playing back at me, and this time he had bottom 2-pair.

But even if I break even, I still feel like for metagame reasons I have to be willing to defend TPTK against LAGgy opponents when I think they are just making a play.

So, does anyone else agree with me. And if so, what are the tricks you use to distinguish between a LAG that is making a play and a LAG that has the goods?

[dpe8598]

Define your hand, reraise. If he is a good LAG he will get out if he has air. If he keeps coming at you, then get out and make this kind of guy pay when he has the goods.

Also, use your position. TPTK is tremendously stronger w/ position. If you have position, just keep raising to define your hand and take control of the pot. If he calls you down you can always check on the river.

[lolzzz_321]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ht=sad+divorce

[jackvance]

I have seen lots of advice on this board that you should never risk your entire stack to TPTK.

Damn I'd have to play three weeks for $2 if I were to follow THAT advice to the letter. What stake do you play at?

[spoon22]

I like to feel out my position in that circumstance with a LAG...If he bets into you post-flop, I say a few times you come back over the top with an "information raise"...that'll really give you an idea of where you stand IMO. It will also give you a strong read on what he's thinking after you do that..and sets it up moving forward. Especially if he has the mentality that you lay down all TPTK hands.

[drmcboy]

never have a rule that starts with never.

[Ebene]

I'm playing $50 NL. Note that all of this only applies to playing against LAG types:

"Reraise to define your hand"
This used to be my standard line, and I still do it about half the time now. But when I do, I am lost when the following happens:
Flop: Villain bets, I reraise 2x the bet, he calls.
Turn: He checks, I check
River: He bets 2/3-100% of the pot

I feel like he is bluffing a lot of the time on the river because he sensed weakness on the turn. Or was he trying to trap me into betting on the turn? If so why not bet less for value?

So about half of the time I use counterplay. When he bets into me, I hesitate and then call. This helps control the pot size and it pretty much guarantees the Villain will bet big again on the turn, whether he has a hand or not and usually the answer is not. When I quickly call, they usually just check the river and I'm happy to check it down in case they are setting up a trap. I feel like this line has been very profitable, because I never told the LAG I had him beat on the flop so he was forced to keep betting at me. I feel like if I just raise him on the flop I'm broadcasting that I have him beat and I give him a chance to get out cheap. When they make what seems like a value bet on the river, its a judgement call but I usually figure I'm beat and fold. Its when they make a big 50+ BB bet on the river that I am seriously thinking about calling. The situation doesn't come up that often, but obviously when it does it has big implications both for my winnings and for the metagame.

[dpe8598]

In the above line why would you check on the turn after reraising him. You reraised because you were somewhat strong and you wanted to define the hand right? Checking on the turn is a move you would make if you were trying to buy the hand, but you werent doing that were you? If so, then do more than minimum bet.

Anyway, the correct move is to push again on turn, especially if in position. And then push again on the river, if out of position, and check (or push depending on your read) if in position. If he fights back real hard during any of this then you know you are beat.

[Ebene]

Another problem with raising on the flop. If he comes out strong on the turn, I am forced to get out of the hand unless I improved given the pot size. But Villain knows this, so sometimes his move is to call the raise and bet the turn with air, so again I'm forced to throw away the best hand unless I have 2-pair or better. This particulaly sucks when I am raising w/ my flush draw, because I didn't even get my free card and the pot odds are such that I can't call.

So the only hands I feel really good about raising a LAG on the flop with are 2-pair, a set, or a monster, but then again, why not just let him hang himself on the turn instead of giving him a chance to fold on the flop?

[Ebene]

In the above line why would you check on the turn after reraising him. You reraised because you were somewhat strong and you wanted to define the hand right? Checking on the turn is a move you would make if you were trying to buy the hand, but you werent doing that were you? If so, then do more than minimum bet.

Anyway, the correct move is to push again on turn, especially if in position. And then push again on the river, if out of position, and check (or push depending on your read) if in position. If he fights back real hard during any of this then you know you are beat.

Yeah your right. I guess I've been trying to incorporate "controlling pot size with medium strong hands" into my game lately, so I have been looking for ways to keep the pot smaller. But if I check on the turn I am pretty much telling him to bet big on the river and run me out.

Are there any ways to "control the pot size" with this line? Or does that get thrown out the window when playing against a LAG?

[dpe8598]

It depends on position. If you dont have position and you want to control the pot size, than it is tough to throw out an info bet, because you are starting to put yourself in deeper. Here, you may want to relegate yourself to throwing in moderate bets and then just making a decision based on strength if he pushes back. In position, definitely push and push hard if you are strong at all. This is good for information gathering and controlling the pot.

Even though you are throwing in the extra bet when in position, you are severely limited the chances that he pushes back at you unless he really is much stronger. In that way you've controlled the pot and have the option to check on the river if you like.