Pot size

[jackvance]

This probably a big leak I have atm, because I don't really look at pot sizes very much. The low-level fish I played with the past couple of days, if I were to throw in a pot-sized bet, they'd probably just fold out, only staying in with a real monster. So I mainly make postflop bets based on "what would scare off the 'gamblers' (like draws)?" (when I have something decent) or "how much will he follow me?" (when I think I'm ahead).

So the theory, as I see it, is that you play for the contents of the pot, so your bets should be in relation of the pot because of the 'odds to win' factor. Like, if I had TPLK and gave myself a 75% chance to win through my read of the table, maybe I'd go with a bet a little less than 75% of the pot, right?

Like pot is 2$, I raise 1.4$..

Or is this thinking off? Would appreciate some input from how you guys with more experience make your bets postflop.. like when you go 1/2 pot, 3/4 pot, pot-size, etc.

/still eager to learn

[biondino]

Pot size is vital, yes, but the key thing here is how much you make OTHER people bet. If you have a good hand, you want to protect it (against people with less good hands who could improve on the turn or the river). If you fear an opponent may have a flush draw, you want to give them BAD ODDS to call your bet. A flush draw has a roughly 20% chance of completing on the turn; therefore, you need to make them bet MORE THAN 20% of what's already in the pot.

Fortunately, there is an easy way of doing this: if you make a bet that's HALF the current pot size or higher, they are getting bad odds to draw (it's not exact, but it is a handy rule of thumb). The bigger a bet you make, the worse their odds are.

In a pure sense, this is a no-lose situation for you; if they fold, you wein the pot; if they bet, then the number of times they do make their flush will not pay for the number of times they don't make it.

In practice, of course, it's not that simple - you can't be totally sure what they have; you might have other draws yourself; you might continue to bet even after they make their flush, etc. This is where IMPLIED ODDS come in, which basically mean it can sometimes be worthwhile to call with bad odds when you're on a drwa because if you DO hit, you will make enough on later streets to pay for the times when you don't.

The other important concept is value betting, which is basically when you believe you're ahead and want to ensure that your opponents continue putting the maximum amount of money into the pot. Too big a bet can cause opponents to fold, thereby not maximising your profits. A lot of beginners undestand this, and end up SLOWPLAYING too much, i.e. underbetting in order to prevent opponentes folding, but in the process, allowing opponents to draw they cards they need to beat them with good odds.

[biondino]

Sorry if that's all too basic, by the way - it just seemed appropriate to cover the fundamentals before exploring this topic in more detail! I thought in the Beginners Circle it was the right course of action

[jackvance]

Sorry if that's all too basic, by the way - it just seemed appropriate to cover the fundamentals before exploring this topic in more detail! I thought in the Beginners Circle it was the right course of action

Any input is helpful, thx But I'd love to hear you explore it in details too. I'm a very quick learner and rational thinker, and generally good at statistics and strategy (belgian open chess champion at 16 y'old).. so try me if you will

[Big Dazz]

A flush draw has a roughly 20% chance of completing on the turn; therefore, you need to make them bet MORE THAN 20% of what's already in the pot.

Fortunately, there is an easy way of doing this: if you make a bet that's HALF the current pot size or higher, they are getting bad odds to draw (it's not exact, but it is a handy rule of thumb). The bigger a bet you make, the worse their odds are.

Hi, clarify for me please.
When ever I try to knock an opponent off a flush draw I always make the flop bet more that the pot total because the odds for the draw (flush ) are 2:1. I read this on one of the recent posts - pot odds/implied odds.

Dealing with 5:1 odds for the flush draw is taking one card at a time. I thought it was best to deal with your opponents draws as both cards to come. Same when I'm on the drawing hand.

cheers.

[Sprayed]

A flush draw has a roughly 20% chance of completing on the turn; therefore, you need to make them bet MORE THAN 20% of what's already in the pot.

Fortunately, there is an easy way of doing this: if you make a bet that's HALF the current pot size or higher, they are getting bad odds to draw (it's not exact, but it is a handy rule of thumb). The bigger a bet you make, the worse their odds are.

Hi, clarify for me please.
When ever I try to knock an opponent off a flush draw I always make the flop bet more that the pot total because the odds for the draw (flush ) are 2:1. I read this on one of the recent posts - pot odds/implied odds.

Dealing with 5:1 odds for the flush draw is taking one card at a time. I thought it was best to deal with your opponents draws as both cards to come. Same when I'm on the drawing hand.

cheers.

Don't over bet. If they are drawing and you just bet the pot, you have taken away the proper odds for them to continue. You want them to call when they don't have the odds to call. That's how you make money in the long run.

[andy-akb]

A flush draw has a roughly 20% chance of completing on the turn; therefore, you need to make them bet MORE THAN 20% of what's already in the pot.

Fortunately, there is an easy way of doing this: if you make a bet that's HALF the current pot size or higher, they are getting bad odds to draw (it's not exact, but it is a handy rule of thumb). The bigger a bet you make, the worse their odds are.

Hi, clarify for me please.
When ever I try to knock an opponent off a flush draw I always make the flop bet more that the pot total because the odds for the draw (flush ) are 2:1. I read this on one of the recent posts - pot odds/implied odds.

Dealing with 5:1 odds for the flush draw is taking one card at a time. I thought it was best to deal with your opponents draws as both cards to come. Same when I'm on the drawing hand.

cheers.

I really dont like a pot sized bet if your goal is to discourage drawing to a flush. From the flop to the turn with 4 cards to a flush they are about 4:1, so on the flop even a half pot bet doesnt give them odds to draw out. If they are still in and you think still drawing to a flush then on the turn do not give them odds to draw to a flush, again about 4:1. By overbetting you are not giving them the odds, but you are risking a lot of your chips in this process. Id typically bet 1/2-2/3 the pot if I were tryingto discourage a flush draw.

If I have a made hand on the flop, but the board is monotone and I dnt have any cards of thatsuit, then I will bet the pot, never more, and I never overbet the pot with the main goal of pushing out flush draws.

[jackvance]

I just had something annoying happen. Basically, I was on a table full of callers, so I limped in with JT and hit top pair on the flop. So I bet hard, everyone folds but one guy. The river gives me a straight. Now, there's the possibility this guy has an even higher straight than me, but not very likely since that woulda meant he would have called with nothing on the flop.. ofcourse possible at 10NL. There was also a possible flush draw out. Ok, so I figure, I'll just bet heavy.. if he reraises me he probably has the higher street, otherwise there isn't anything out there to beat me.

So I bet 3/4 pot, he calls. Hm.. two pair, a set? Can't let go of his AJ? Doesn't matter I guess. So the river comes around, and I push the rest of my chips (about 1/2pot) in the middle.. he calls, and shows a flush. I had already disregarded it, but the river gave the 3rd club. So he was on a flush draw afterall ?!

Anyway.. do I have to write this off as "yeah it happens"-kinda thing or maybe shoulda seen it somehow or done something different?

[andy-akb]

What is the board? Post the hand history, its tough to say without physically seeing all the cards and action.

[jackvance]

I don't have the history, so I'll recreate as best as I can:

My hand: JdTh
5 people, including me, limp into the pot

Flop: 8c9dTc

I hit TP here, with a straight and flush draw possible, of which the straight draw is mine too, so I raise pot-size. One caller.

Turn: 7h

Hit my straight. Only QJ has me beat here. So I raise 3/4 pot. Guy calls

River: 3c

I go all-in for 1/2 pot, he calls, and flips over Qc4c. (hm in retrospect seems like a flush draw+gut shot)

So eh, is this "yeah it happens" (because I think I gave him bad enough odds to chase a draw) or did I make mistakes of some sort?

[andy-akb]

What position were you in? If you were in LP then I dont mind playing this hand, although Id probably ditch it. Anyways, the flop seems fine, Id usually bet about the pot here. However, on the turn you hit your straight and bet 3/4 the pot but barely leave behind any chips. Typically this isnt a bad bet, but if you are leaving behind so few chips Id just push here. You are not giving your opponent the correct odds to call for a flush, so your ahnd will get paid off in the long run more than it loses.

[jackvance]

I had about $3.90 in my stack at that time. I limped in on the button with 2 limpers in front of me (and this is a table where any sort of raise usually means AA/KK/QQ/AK) So the pot is $0.50. I pushed $0.50 after the flop, one caller, pot is now $1.50 when I got my straight.

I contemplated an all-in here, as I have only $3.30 left, but with a higher straight possibility out there, I felt like I'd rather throw enough, but not everything, so if the other guy hit the nuts, he'd probably reraise me and I could fold. So I pushed $1.20 and he called.

So after this, I wasn't really thinking about a possible chase anymore, simply "ah he doesn't have the higher straight" (I'd say the biggest percentage of my money loss comes from disregarding a higher straight/flush when I hit one, so I'm wary of those things now) so I pushed my all-in on the river.

So it probably really was an "ah well this happens" kinda loss? Or is there any justification for being afraid when the 3rd club hits on the river? I'd say no, because really, he paid pot-size for a flush draw on the turn and then 3/4 pot for a flush and gutshot on the river.. I don't think I can be calculating this kind of play..

[andy-akb]

If you are betting that turn you are going to essentially be committed to calling any raise, and any bet on the river, so you might as well just push, in my opinion atleast. The bigger mistake though is not rebuying to $10, if you get down to such a small stake then you should top your stack off to a full buyin so when you do hit a hand you get paid off. I want my stack to always be atleast the size of the max buyin, you need to have a full stack so you can get paid off when you hit.

[jackvance]

Yeah I knew you were gonna say that.. but case in point my BR now is one buy-in. I can only imagine the heat I'm gonna get from that, but my game is way too unstable to confidently play "the right way", BR-wise. Tomorrow it'll be 3 weeks since I learned the rules of NLHE, and 2 weeks since I play online. When I do feel confident about my game, then yes, I'll buy in with a big enough BR, rebuy up full when I go down, etc. But I just haven't reached that point yet.

Basically, whenever I got below $30, I felt it better to just sit down with $6 and evaluate my play while I donk it, rather than "do the right thing" and deposit a bigger BR and 2-table for $20 and donk that down the drain..

And when I deposited that $60, I was fully prepared to blow it all as a learning experience.. I just didn't expect to double up first, and then blow it all anyway. (ok I still got $10 left hehe) I've been thinking a bit about how come I actually seem to have gotten worse since I started, even though I learned a lot.. I think it has got to do with the fact that at first I didn't know squat so I just stuck to a few simple rules which seemed to work somewhat.. and after that I got more observant, and tried different things, etc, and donked a lot more.

Yesterday was pretty interesting that way.. a friend came over and I played for 2 hours while I explained everything I did (and how NLHE works) and for the first time in 3 days I actually felt I was playing decently again. I was up a bit, and when he left I played for another hour, and at the end was up $10.
But then I played some more.. the "ah this guy does this", "damn he bluffed me out.. maybe I should bluff more too?", "ugh this guy seems to be good, let's see what he does" etc started to cloud my mind again and I blew it all..

I'm giving myself 1-2 months to get the hang of 10NL, a few months more for higher limits. This, to me, seems reasonable considering my previous endeavours in strategy games (chess, go,..).. but we'll see how it turns out.

[andy-akb]

I warned you about bankroll management awhile ago, if $10NL is the smallest stakes the site you are playing at has, then move to stars where they have $2NL and play that. You are trying to play too tricky at these low stakes, all that is going to do is get you in trouble. Move to stars and play $2NL and try something, dont bluff.

[jackvance]

I think I'm gonna take you up on that advice. I guess I'll go see how I can get money in their account, I hope international money tranfers don't take fees :P

[jackvance]

I did some checking.. signed up to this neteller thing, hope that's a good thing for international money transfers and online things etc. Maybe I'll go do this bonus whoring I've been reading about.

And I think I might go for Paradise Poker after some checking.. they give 25% sign-up bonus it seems plus they have microlimits.

Oh and I just doubled my BR at unibet lol.. hit a straight on the turn when a guy had trips. He shoulda raised after the flop hehe. Now how long will it be til I go bonking again, sigh..

[KingLizard]

The bigger mistake though is not rebuying to $10, if you get down to such a small stake then you should top your stack off to a full buyin so when you do hit a hand you get paid off. I want my stack to always be atleast the size of the max buyin, you need to have a full stack so you can get paid off when you hit.

I can attest to this advice being extremely worthwhile. I started about 6 months ago at 10PL then 25PL after a month and to 25NL about 7 weeks ago. Initially I would sit down with half a buyin hoping to "minimize" my losses. After studying at FTR U, I got better but my BR wasn't growing much. That's when I realized 2 things ... I had gotten better and was winning more than in the past PLUS by maintaining a full to near full buyin, I was winning significantly MORE when I did win a hand. I actually doubled my BB/100 over the past 7 weeks. Oh ... and yeah I still lose a buyin on a hand but the winnings have far outweighed those losses.

[jackvance]

Yeah it's really great advice. With enough confidence in my ability and the BR to support it, this refilling up to max is REALLY the way I'm gonna go.

Yesterday, after my BR hit the all-time low of one buy-in ($10) I seemed to have found some stability in my game. Chardrian and Andy and others laying the truth on me seems to have sunk in somewhat hehe. So I play 6-7 hours single-table 10NL with some breaks inbetween, all at $7-$8 buyin because of my low BR and flakiness, and then when I finally blew $8 bonking it up (ie the common "I know I'm lost but I'm gonna call anyway for some reason") I knew it was time to stop playing.

The positive thing this time was that I had made $33 prior to this, so I was still up $25 since before. So now I took some sleep and played again. After ten mins I stopped, up $4 on a $7 buy-in. The BR is now a little less critical at $39. But that $4 doesn't really matter.. I shoulda gotten double that actually, but I was still a bit shaky (afraid to go bonking again) so I cut it short a bit.

If I can keep this level of play up for a few days, and hopefully make some money in the process to put the BR even safer (although I will keep looking at the level of my play rather than the money I lose, ie seeing if my money loss comes from donk play and leaks (bad) or bad luck (when I get KK he got AA) and bad beats (KK vs QQ losses etc).. the latter doesn't matter since if my game is good, it'll pay off eventually. So anyway, if I can keep this up for a few days maybe I'll go back to multitabling.

But I defininately think having to move to the microstakes isn't necessary anymore. Even at 10NL I'm constantly thinking "god what awful play, gimme a good hand and it's destacking-time!" Like this one game, yesterday, I lucked out when a guy hit a straight on the turn and got destacked, but I thought "damn these people are really bad, all need is that one hand to take their money" so I rebought in at the same table, and 20 mins later more than doubled up.

After a few days of feeling totally lost, this is quite the nice change But we'll see how it progresses..

[Pelion]

jackvance. Take your $30 and go play $2 NL somewhere. You can buyin for $2 at the $5 stars tables and treat it as 2NL if you want since the blinds are 0.01/0.02.

Playing 10NL with less than 5 buyins is not even a little bit smart. You can be playing absolutely perfectly and lose it all very easily.

If you can play a discipled patient game it wont take you long to build up from 2NL, but you are risking your whole BR by staying at 10NL

You will almost certainly find yourself playing much better and not making those tilty calls when you know you are beat if you arent permenantly worrying about your BR.

Let me ask you a question. Do you have a sneaky peak at the cashier to see how much you have in the site after you are involved in a pot. I bet you do That isnt the right way to be. If you want to get serious about poker then treat your BR as your lifeline, even if you can relode it without too much hassle. Take it seriously and dont risk it by gambling too high.

[jackvance]

what can I say, I'm a stubborn guy. Since I buy-in at $7 now, my $39 gives me 5 and a half buy-ins. The amount of people playing like idiots and just asking to fork over their cash at 10NL.. I seriously think I couldn't play at 2NL as it stands now.

Let me ask you a question. Do you have a sneaky peak at the cashier to see how much you have in the site after you are involved in a pot. I bet you do

Actually I don't.. ever since I hit that $10 low I started to consider it as "void money" anyway. Btw even if it's not realistic, it'd be cool to start my poker career on my initial $60 hehe.. ok likely I'll blow it all and then I'll have to find some funds somewhere and go with a normal BR but now I'm just practicing off of my $60 "practice money" for as long as I can

[chardrian]

Hey jack - why not just take that $39 and go to a $50 NL table?

You are so good I am sure that you will quickly be up to at least $150 in no time...

Ok - reality check. You keep saying that you are a quick learner, and that you are absorbing information here blah blah blah. What is the MOST you are willing to spend to get this "poker education" you are talking about? Cuz whatever that amount is, that's your true bankroll. $60 is not a bankroll for a $10NL game...especially for 6 max. It comfortably rolls you ONLY for a $1 or maybe a $2 max buy-in table.

From Rilla's sticky: "You can find the accurate numbers for a proper bankroll all over this great forum of ours. But I like 15-30 buyins for No Limit (Maybe even more for 6max), 300BB for limit and 15+ buyins for tournies (More for MTTs). If you play a little from column A (limit) and a little from columb B (Tournies or NL) a good rule of thumb for your bankroll size is never risk more than 5-10% of it on any given day."

So Mr. Smarty Pants (aka Jack) - you tell me how much of a roll you should have for $10 NL 6 max? And then let me know if $39 at a $10NL table is playing smart.

[andy-akb]

You should also be practicing bankroll management. Buying in short and calling it a buy-in just isnt smart. If thats how you define a buyin, and you only have 5.5 of those, then you need to change the stakes you are playing at.

[jackvance]

Chadrian, I really don't have anything to say except that you're right but I'm gonna do this anyway.

You can tell me "I told you so later"

[chardrian]

Nah - if you aren't going to listen, I just won't waste my time anymore.

GL tho.

[andy-akb]

Nah - if you aren't going to listen, I just won't waste my time anymore.

GL tho.

I agree here, he may not be as standoff-ish as somebody like fasin8ing [atleast not in this thread, maybe in the thread where he said i didnt know what i was talking about with rules for a rebuy tourney], but still if a beginner is asking for advice they shouldnt say "yes, you are right, but im not going to listen." I have no hard feelings against the OP, I just dont know if its worth my time to respond to his posts if he completely disregards my, and your, advice, at this point I do not think it is.

[chardrian]

I have absolutely no problem with someone arguing their point of view. Even if I disagree with it.

I don't even have a problem with Jack wanting to do things his way.

I'm a horrible preacher for bankroll management - I have done the same stupid things jack is doing now numerous times.

So at some point you just gotta say go for it - have at it. GL.

[jackvance]

I agree here, he may not be as standoff-ish as somebody like fasin8ing [atleast not in this thread, maybe in the thread where he said i didnt know what i was talking about with rules for a rebuy tourney], but still if a beginner is asking for advice they shouldnt say "yes, you are right, but im not going to listen." I have no hard feelings against the OP, I just dont know if its worth my time to respond to his posts if he completely disregards my, and your, advice, at this point I do not think it is.

Aren't you being a bit harsh here you think?

It's not like I'm trying to be a pighead who doesn't listen to anyone. I took a lot of the things you said to heart and some have helped me a great deal (like in the 'chronic downplayers' thread). I think I also expressed this.

In the BR case however.. when I hit rock bottom at $10, I was fully preparing to move to 2NL. I even registered a Neteller account, took their phonecall, installed the software from another poker site that has 2NL, etc. But then, suddenly, my BR quadrupled. Ok, let's wait for a bit then.

Just played 15 more minutes, up $5. BR is at $44 now. I didn't get anything fancy either, only one hand I could raise with (KQ) the whole time! Ok no doubt I'm hitting some positive variance here but it seems so easy to outplay these 10NL guys all of a sudden..

And think back to when you played poker for three weeks. Not like, seriously for 3 weeks, or online for 3 weeks, but 3 weeks after you learned the rules of the game. That's where I'm at now. If I could, say, feel confident about my game for more than a week on end, then maybe it's time to start taking these BR management things more seriously, and I will certainly take this advice. Now is just not the time yet.

[jackvance]

Oh one thing I forgot to mention. When I told a friend I took up poker, about a week ago, he said that he wanted to give me a huge BR so I could play the higher stakes, because "I know you have what it takes to get good at that game". I simply don't have the money to get a decent BR up now, but at any time I want, I can get a big BR from that guy. I'd rather not do it though, and live off my own feeble holdings, because in that case I would have to split the winnings. But it's something I'm keeping in mind just in case..

[CBone]

Erm...leave it, seriously. Even if you could consistently beat NL10, it would mean zilch if you played higher stakes. Even if you have an appropriate roll for NL100, you would get absolutely steamrolled there, and most of the guys there still suck. Positive variance is nice, as long as it lasts, but barely a replacement for experience and a bankroll.

[andy-akb]

Aren't you being a bit harsh here you think?

It's not like I'm trying to be a pighead who doesn't listen to anyone. I took a lot of the things you said to heart and some have helped me a great deal (like in the 'chronic downplayers' thread). I think I also expressed this.

You are right, in this case I guess I was being a little harsh and I hope that some of my advice has helped, its just frustrating because none of that advice matters when you are playing out of your bankroll.

In the BR case however.. when I hit rock bottom at $10, I was fully preparing to move to 2NL. I even registered a Neteller account, took their phonecall, installed the software from another poker site that has 2NL, etc. But then, suddenly, my BR quadrupled. Ok, let's wait for a bit then.

Just played 15 more minutes, up $5. BR is at $44 now. I didn't get anything fancy either, only one hand I could raise with (KQ) the whole time! Ok no doubt I'm hitting some positive variance here but it seems so easy to outplay these 10NL guys all of a sudden..

Yea, your bankroll quadrupled, but its still at a little more than 4 buyins. And again, at these levels dont try to constantly "outplay" your opponents, if you play your cards and make timely C-Bets you will do fine, no need to get fancy. Id still suggest going to stars with your $44 giving you 22 buyins for $2nl, if you follow strict guidelines and only play your cards there is no doubt in my mind you will move up in the limits with ease, but you need to establish a bankroll first, and right now you dont have that, even with $44.

And think back to when you played poker for three weeks. Not like, seriously for 3 weeks, or online for 3 weeks, but 3 weeks after you learned the rules of the game. That's where I'm at now. If I could, say, feel confident about my game for more than a week on end, then maybe it's time to start taking these BR management things more seriously, and I will certainly take this advice. Now is just not the time yet.

Bankroll management is what makes it so there is another week, its what allows your confidence and good play to pay off. 3 weeks after I learned the rules of poker I was nowhere near as far in the process as you are; however, 3 weeks into the process I was willing to take advice and follow what other people said because I knew they knew more than I did. You say its "not the time" to follow bankroll management, but why not? Even if you are fully willing to lose the initial deposit, you shouldnt want to. You dont have to go broke to learn as you seem to imply, you can use the money to learn with and keep that money.

[jackvance]

Erm...leave it, seriously. Even if you could consistently beat NL10, it would mean zilch if you played higher stakes. Even if you have an appropriate roll for NL100, you would get absolutely steamrolled there, and most of the guys there still suck. Positive variance is nice, as long as it lasts, but barely a replacement for experience and a bankroll.

Ugh, now you're making me feel like I'm boasting about how great I am at poker, which I really don't think I am. It's just that a fair number of these 10NL people suck and I just try to search these guys out. I'm not even thinking about moving up a stake without the BR for it. Even if I would somehow magically have the skill to do so, I'd still be out several buy-ins before I could simply adjust to the playstyle there.

[CBone]

Didn't want to patronize you, sorry if it sounded like that, but I had the impression you are considering moving up there if you could somehow get rolled for it. So I wanted to emphasize how important experience is, along with an appropriate bankroll.

[jackvance]

The plan is to not move up a stake until I EARN the bankroll for it. Whenever that may be.

(for knowing the BR for a particular stake, I go by my friend's advice at 20 buy-ins)

[andy-akb]

The plan is to not move up a stake until I EARN the bankroll for it. Whenever that may be.

(for knowing the BR for a particular stake, I go by my friend's advice at 20 buy-ins)

If in your plan you drop below 20 buyins for the current level, do you drop down?

[jackvance]

At 15 I would start to worry and seriously reeavaluate my game.

At 10 would be a definite dropdown.

[jackvance]

Ah, very interesting poker games today. I was seated at a table with the types of players you rarely find at 10NL.. the kind that plays somewhat how I play now. So unlike the "slowplayers" or the "maniacs", they were all very conservative, dropped any hand where they had nothing, value bet any hand they got something. I got my fair share of strong hands, but I simply couldn't get anyone to pay up. Tried the overbets that often entice lesser players, tried smaller bets to fake weaknes.. they just folded everything.

Then I tried the slowplay-tactic. There's always the risk of them hitting something lucky on turn or river, but I wanted to see of this way I could get some more money out of them. So I waited for a safe-looking board, which was 24T rainbow with me holding overpair. Ofcourse he had A3 and the river gave him a 5. Serves me right I guess, but was worth a shot.

A bit later a small-stack maniac shows up. He throws himself all-in when I'm holding AK. So ok, call. He was holding J7 and gets his J. Damn. The round after he throws himself all-in again and gets destacked by another guy. Double damn.

Then I start thinking.. since they play like me, I started thinking what my weakness was. And well, I can probably be read easily by a perceptive opponent since I play very conservative, plus I can be bluffed out pretty easily. So going on this, I started to throw calculated bluffs, and creeped my way back up to almost my buy-in.

Then we come at this situation where I am holding KK, a board full of lower cards (blanks), and an opponent giving the vibe he has something. But also hesitation, so probably no AA. So at the turn I throw an all-in, and he flips QQ. And ofcourse.. that 6% chance that he actually gets his Q on the river turns reality. Bad beat there, damn.

So I'm down to $1.50 or so.. some people leave, new people show up, so I figure maybe this is an easier crowd and keep playing.

At this time I also reached a critical phase in the MTT I was playing at the same time. Only 400 people left of the 4500 that started, and ITM (first 260 places) was coming into view, but I had fallen to about 3M so it was time for that one "lucky break" you need to get to win money in an MTT. I'm on the BB, all folds except for the SB who throws himself all-in. I was holding J8 so I figured this was as good a time as any to gamble. He flipped AK, the flop gave me a J, but the river a K and I was out.

A few minutes later in the ring game I get my $1.50 into a 3-way all-in with KQ and the 88 guy takes the pot.

All in all pretty educational. I was able to try my hand at some tougher opponents, and I think I held my own, even got to try some different approaches, that was nice. But I think in the future I'll just go look for the fishier tables

[andy-akb]

This is why you need to make sure you have a big enough bankroll, to handle bad beats like that. What was the buy-in for this MTT? Im pretty sure you could have found a better spot to call an all in or push than when you are holding J8 and face a bigger stack.

[jackvance]

It was a $1000 freeroll. I was sitting on the BB which had just eaten over 1/4 of my stack and the SB threw all-in.. I could have waited but then I'd be even smaller and it would only buy me time for one more round cuz the next time those blinds would come around they'd eat me whole. So I was hoping for the long shot that it was more of a "BB scare" than a real push and took a shot hoping for some luck..

Btw everyone was a bigger stack at that point.. I have to admit though that I made one very stupid move a bit earlier that put me in this desperate position. I was sitting at 2.2k and called with KQ.. probably not that smart but I think was at around 5M so the time for my usual tight play had ended. But then a 1.4k guy threw himself all-in and I called.. for some reason.. damn that was stupid. I was mostly focussing on my ring game and had my hand values messed up or something, dunno, not an excuse ofcourse. He flipped AQ.

[thegreatbuddha]

Does it matetr if I keep my BR in my account or not?

I generally play $10NLHE, with the occasional $25NLHE game.

My BR is ~$600, but I only deposit $50 at a time until i have enough discipline to not continually rebuy everytime I lose.

[biondino]

No, it doesn't matter. Your bankroll is what you are willing to risk to play poker with. I wonder what jack's "real" BR is - will he give up if he donks (or bonks) off every penny in his account? My guess is no. So perhaps he IS bankrolled for $10NL and just doesn't realise it, in which case there's really no need for him to cross swords with people who could really help him, like Chardrian.

Jack, addressing you personally for a moment. You are clearly very bright, you have real enthusiasm for the game and you really want to learn.

However, I think you rate yourself a little too highly - you assume that because your brain has always come through for you before, it'll be the same with poker. And, in all likelihood, it will. BUT NOT YET.

Poker is a game where experience is FAR more valuable than being top of your maths class. You can calculate your odds to the fifth decimal place as much as you like, but until you get a feel for the game that only thousands upon thousands of hands can give you, you will continue to make mistakes and misreads which will never disappear entirely, but will get less and less as you get more and more savvy.

Imagine poker is a musical instrument. You can understand the workings of the instrument 100%, but until you've spent hours and hours practising it, you won't be able to play it well.

This is why, for beginning players most of all, you MUST stick to the rules that allow people to learn, make mistakes and progress without bankrupting themselves. I'm sure $10NL is fine for you as a learning zone, so stump up $150, bung it on Stars or wherever and improve your game without constantly worrying about $4 here or $7 here. Being constantly aware of cash fluctuations is a destructive habit which detracts from concentrating on playing good poker and, whether you like it or not, will lead to bad habits where you associate hands or plays with good or bad results when they need to be played on their own merit within the context of each individual game. It'll also exacerbate any tilting you happen to do.