Pot Management: When to build and when to slow down

[pizzatron]

When is it a good time to build and slow down a pot? To build it I can think of a few reasons: You have a strong hand, you have a decent draw with fold equity, and you want to get as much money in as possible in later streets if you hit. What am I missing here?

I think the tough one for me is how and when to slow it down, I can think of a few factors to consider:

-The nature of your hand
-Your position (being OOP against laggs and getting smooth called, especially)
-The number/type of opponents in the hand
-Your table image
-Your reads and what you think they think you have, if they’re above average players
-The board
-???

So, anyone have examples or insights? Thanks.

[dpe8598]

One HUGE factor to think about when thinking about slowing down is position. If you are out of position, slow it down when you are only moderately strong (top pair w/ decent kicker). Then, even if you get called down and someone tries to buy the pot from you on the river, you can usually afford a pot sized or less call here, because your hand is still somewhat strong and you've kept the pot size managable.

In late position, be uber aggressive and dont let other players slow it down. If you get a half pot sized bet you can reraise them huge w/ middle pair. If they call or raise you can think about getting out, but at the very least you might have bought yourself a free card and usually you will take down the pot right there.

In sum, when out of position, slow it down and keep the pot managable. When in late position, speed it up and define your hand.

[SinkRox]

In sum, when out of position, slow it down and keep the pot managable. When in late position, speed it up and define your hand.

I like this quote, although I find slowing down oop give you less info and defines your hand less - I think this is why I often fire away and am uber aggressive post flop even oop (a leak im working on).. but i like the positives (manageable pot and bets)

[jackvance]

Sorry I'm kinda new, could someone plz explain this a tad more?

What is a manageable pot?

And why would you slow it down? To try to downplay your hand and get others to raise?

And a last thing.. what is the reasoning behind being slow if you're up front and being aggressive if you're at the back? Because you have more info about the other players?..

Sorry if my questions are annoying, trying to learn

[Fnord]

In short, a key part to winning big in NLHE is tending to play big pots with your strongest hands and tending to play small/medium pots with lukewarm and vulnerable hands. Without strong reads, the implieds odds on sucking out are probably better than you'd think. Hence, with lots of money behind it can be correct to give a card with a vulnerable hand if you're not going to pay-off more than pot and are likely to induce a bluff.

[nutsinho]

In short, a key part to winning big in NLHE is tending to play big pots with your strongest hands and tending to play small/medium pots with lukewarm and vulnerable hands. Without strong reads, the implieds odds on sucking out are probably better than you'd think. Hence, with lots of money behind it can be correct to give a card with a vulnerable hand if you're not going to pay-off more than pot and are likely to induce a bluff.

bingo bango bongo bungo

[jmontis]

In short, a key part to winning big in NLHE is tending to play big pots with your strongest hands and tending to play small/medium pots with lukewarm and vulnerable hands. Without strong reads, the implieds odds on sucking out are probably better than you'd think. Hence, with lots of money behind it can be correct to give a card with a vulnerable hand if you're not going to pay-off more than pot and are likely to induce a bluff.

I remember getting into it with Doggz about that. He said he was willing to risk his stack on pretty much ANY edge, which I know is incorrect for NL(your swings could be devastating if you do). He then replied that's probably why I don't play high stakes, and probably don't make money.. heh. Very weak

I totally agree with you Fnord.

[jackvance]

So if I understand correctly.. if the pot is big, and you have a good hand but it is "vulnerable", ie a flush draw is possible, you're gonna get out of it? That can't be right lol..
(on my interpretation of what you said, don't want to question your knowledge ofcourse)

[Fnord]

don't want to question your knowledge of course

That's silly. I'm certainly not anywhere close to the biggest winner nor best player on the forum. I question myself all of the time. If you can't think this stuff through and figure out who's advice makes sense and tends to add value to your game, then take up bowling instead.

[Fnord]

I remember getting into it with Doggz about that. He said he was willing to risk his stack on pretty much ANY edge, which I know is incorrect for NL(your swings could be devastating if you do). He then replied that's probably why I don't play high stakes, and probably don't make money.. heh.

There is merit to that line of reasoning. One of the silliest things I see regularly posted is to "look for a better spot" in a cash game. Either you're getting the best of money you're putting into the pot, you're not or it's really close. Figure it out. Unless the pot is tiny, poker punishes weak folds in tougher games.

Still, you're going to need some god-like reads if you're going to keep sticking it in all-in 100 deep with a pair. When you look at big pots, 1 pair doesn't fair too well when all of the money goes it. When it does win a big pot you're almost always against a draw, bluff, idiot or have AA/KK in the hole.

[dpe8598]

For those of you that find this confusing at first, just start off w/ this advice. When you are strong, bet and build the pot. When you are weak, bet less and keep the pot smaller. Then, if someone tries to buy you out of a pot, check out your pot odds and compare that to the strength of your hand and call when appropriate.

This is good starting advice, but it isn't all you need to be a good player. However, once you have this down, you will begin to see the nuances and specifics of situations that will require you to change it up. For example, if you are pretty weak, but you have a read that the guy is chasing, make him pay to chase and bet big!

[jackvance]

That's silly. I'm certainly not anywhere close to the biggest winner nor best player on the forum. I question myself all of the time. If you can't think this stuff through and figure out who's advice makes sense and tends to add value to your game, then take up bowling instead.

Don't get me wrong here.. I would have no problem questioning what you said, but I don't quite understand it. What I *think* I understand I don't really agree with.. it's just that I likely misunderstood so I'm not gonna say "you are wrong" but rather "eh maybe an example would help to clarify what you mean?" In that light I said what I said.

<= been playing NL for a week, but studying hard

[Fnord]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty much always beting the same amount.
Full pot on the flop if the pot is un-raised (avoid loose calls and build a pot fast when I want to)
2/3 to 3/4 ish pot otherwise
unless a push is called for

I don't mix in stuff like 1/2 pot and full pot bets on the turn/river unless I think my opponent is pretty terrible and easily manipulated.

So quite often, pot control for me means checking streets that would be easy bets in a fixed limit format.

For starters, I don't c-bet quite as much as the 25NL graduates.

[dpe8598]

I agree about c-betting, terribly overestimated at the 100 level. People are just looking to find ways to call you and put you on a c-bet.

[Fnord]

...and there is no rule that says you can't check the flop and bluff the turn. C-bets are so common that checking the flop (particularly ones likely to hit a PFR) can really freeze-up semi-aware players.

[dpe8598]

I think that the check flop bluff turn is actually the "new" c-bet. I've said this before. Here you are representing a real hand that you are trying to get value out of after a slow play. Any decent player will only call you with a real hand.