AQ UTG

[Lodogg]

AQs and AQo UTG preflop at a loose table.

What's your move?

[Fnord]

Open.

[Renton]

At a tight table, consider folding, but open with a raise at a loose table.

When I am four-tabling I typically fold regardless, particularly with AQo

AQo is a hand with reverse implied odds that generally only wins small pots, whereas AQs at least has the implied odds of having a better flush then KXs.

[naturaltan]

open

[Pelion]

most tables Ill raise from any position but fold to a reraise.
Very very very loose tables (where raises dont really thin the field) ill just call and see what the flop brings. i.e. counterplay

[r8ed]

I never fold AQ UTG - that sounds horrible. Table dependant but if you don't raise UTG with AQ, then you'll get less action UTG with AA/KK later. I rarely limp UTG. If I'm on a table so tight that I'm scared to raise UTG, then I usually switch tables. Suited-ness shouldn't matter.

[Renton]

in a tourney raise AQ utg all day long. But in a ring game with tiny blinds you are under no pressure to play a borderline dangerous hand like AQ out of position.

[salsa4ever]

what are u waiting for? AA?

Open with a standard raise, on the small side
u ain't isolating anything much, but build the pot and hope to hit. You can cont bet OOP or checkraise with nothing if your gut tells you to do so (i.e. read the board)

[Lodogg]

Alright...thanks for the info.

One more hand to ponder.

Pocket Tens?
Limp or raise?

[Pelion]

usually limp because people call with anything and hit overcards (which they are more than happy to play for stacks with) so Ill limp for a set for them to play for stacks against. I raise jacks though, and ill raise TT in a tournament (with high blinds) or at a tight table.

[Alibi]

I fold AQo UTG and I have been doing just fine. It's nothing shameful.

[Renton]

I fold AQo UTG and I have been doing just fine. It's nothing shameful.

thanks alot.

Now I don't feel like so much of a fool.

No one's saying that AQo isn't a good hand. And in most cases, a raise from utg is appropriate. All I was saying is that when I am playing four tables at once, I am under no pressure to play AQ oop, because with 220 hands/hour I will likely get a better hand like AK, a pocket pair, or a good suited connector in no time.

AQ is a marginally profitable hand. In 90% of cases you will win a bb or two with it. In 5% percent of cases you are dominated and get stacked, and in the remaining 5% you bust someone with KQ. It basically evens out in the long run, IMO.

[Jimmy Mac]

Probably good for your table image to raise the AQ, but I don't think you lose too much value if you fold it. I open raise AQ+ JJ+ and sometimes TT & 99 from utg. I open limp the other pairs.

[Fnord]

Probably good for your table image to raise the AQ, but I don't think you lose too much value if you fold it.

*nod*

I open raise AQ+ JJ+ and sometimes TT & 99 from utg. I open limp the other pairs.

AJs? KQs? I can't bring myself to break Shania's heart by open limping small pairs. I've seen strong arguments that 22-44 are actually -EV from EP against opponents who aren't easy to exploit post-flop.

[Jimmy Mac]

AJs? KQs?

Im folding these in the first two seats 10 handed. I play too tight though I think. I just hate being OOP. It's nice to be able to grab the odd free card with these hands.

I've seen strong arguments that 22-44 are actually -EV from EP against opponents who aren't easy to exploit post-flop.

That is true - against an aware player, I've pretty much told him my hand. I don't play higher than 100NL though. I'm sure these are +EV against opponents who 1) stack off with TP or two pair in a limped pot. 2) Cant lay down an overpair, or TPTK in a raised pot.

[SinkRox]

i raise AQo UTG, but limp jj.

[WildBobAA]

Early levels of an sng, I fold AQ UTG all day.

[Vrax]

What is avg flop percentage for loose table? Moderate table? Total nitfest?

[Irisheyes]

Open with a standard raise, on the small side
u ain't isolating anything much, but build the pot and hope to hit.

[salsa4ever]

I would limp TT and JJ. If I was on a table where I felt that raising only AK, AQ, AJs, QQ-AA would kill my action I would probably leave the table. Besides I'm often limp-reraising KK/AA so it's not a bad thing if the table folds to my UTG raise.

[Lukie]

UTG at a full table, I think AK, JJ+, and AQs+ are always worth a raise. depending on the table, my image, etc., I try not to go past TT+, AJs+, AQo+, limping the smaller pairs. On some tables, this is too loose imo. I will occasionally put in a raise with a suited connector or baby pair from UTG just for some balance, and I'll also occasionally limp a big hand.

AQo... in the past I would always raise it UTG, even at full tables. I think others have said it best though that it's probably good for the image, but you aren't throwing away much value (if any) by tossing it at a tough 9-10 handed table.

If your UTG raises are getting a lot of respect at a tough, tight, competant table, there's nothing like loosening up your image by (extremely rarely) raising a trash hand like KJo.

[Rondavu]

You guys are nuts. Don't ever fold AQo UTG again. I'll kill you in your sleep. I limp it usually, and call a raise from everyone but super tight players. I open with the suited version all day. AQo is the 15th best hand in poker folks. If you fold it anywhere on the table you should be shot immediately.

I can't remember the last time I got burnt deep holding AQ in EP. I'm sure I've run into AK or a high pair a couple times and just don't recall. It ain't enough to fold this friggin awesome holding in EP.

You guys are talking about AQo the way I talk about KQo. I fold that in EP a lot. Never AQo. NEVER. It just dominates so many hands that raise the early limper from late position.

[Lukie]

Rondavu, do you really think that is the optimal way to play AQo in EP? Limp/call? Seems like a tough spot to play in against an aggressive (note: not loose) opponent with an oft-dominated hand played out of position and without aggression.

edit: can't spell these days...

[Rondavu]

Rondavu, do you really think that is the optimal way to play AQo in EP? Limp/call?

what hands are calling an EP raise VS raising an EP limp? Why is this crucial to a hand like AQ?

[Fnord]

What's your EP limping range?

[RiverMonkey]

Maybe I'm just a little grumpy today, but I really don't know what value is gained from these "how do you play this specific hand from this postion" type posts without also offering some insight into the game and opponent contexts. I mean, bottom line, do we no all agree that it is player, table, situation, and image dependent? How deep is the money etc? IMHO, a discussion specifically centered around reasons or conditions favourable for raising vs. limping or folding would be much more informative. To give a few extreme examples holding AQo UTG: if I was in a very tough, very pre-flop aggressive 1o player game, I might lean more towards folding this hand, and certainly wouldn't limp it. Whereas, in a ridiculously loose pre-flop game where even a 6xBB raise isn't going to thin the field, and it is going to regularly result in an 7-way, 40BB+ pot pre-flop, I'd be more inclined to just limp. Why build a large pot OOP with a top-pair, off-suit type hand if you can be pretty sure that the hand is going to be very multi-way?

EP limping range? Now that is an interesting question. In loose passive games, I'm limping UTG (and from elsewhere) with all sorts of crap. In a tight/aggro game, I'm either opening a much narrower range for a raise or folding. If the money is deep and there's players that will offer large implied odds with their horrible post-flop play, my range of EP limping hands widens dramatically. In general, I try to avoid playing any easily dominated hand from EP and would rather play something like 62s (even though I readily admit that it's a trash hand) than KTo UTG; especially if the $$ is deep.

[BankItDrew]

My EP limping range for 25NL is:
55 - JJ, KQ, AJ. I figure that if I hit top pair with one of the last two hands without a raise, I probably have the best hand. I'll just never loose a large portion of my stack with it.

I agree with Rondavu and salsa4ever on holding onto AQ from EP. Like they say: It's the 15th best hand in Hold'em, there's no sense in waiting for high pockets. I'll open with a raise from EP with AQo everyday on 25NL, limp on certain B&M tables while calling most raises.

[Lodogg]

My EP limping range for 25NL is:
55 - JJ, KQ, AJ.

AJ and KQ from EP is a leak IMO.

[naturaltan]

My EP limping range for 25NL is:
55 - JJ, KQ, AJ. I figure that if I hit top pair with one of the last two hands without a raise, I probably have the best hand. I'll just never loose a large portion of my stack with it.

I agree ... at 25NL, as you've said, more often than not, I can raise on the flop with top pair and win it right there.

[WhooFleuryScores]

AJ and KQ from EP is a leak IMO.

*Shudder* almost as bad as ATo and KJo......yesh....

[Vrax]

I raise 99-AA, AK, AQ, AJs in EP (even UTG), then play it according to no. of opponents and flop texture....
If AQ is raising hand, why not raise 99? TT?

[BankItDrew]

I raise 99-AA, AK, AQ, AJs in EP (even UTG), then play it according to no. of opponents and flop texture....
If AQ is raising hand, why not raise 99? TT?

I think many play like this because most of the time, the flop includes cards higher than Ten. If a Queen or ace flops when you hold AQ, it is a fair (and often easy) assessment that you are ahead. If the flop comes K87 and you hold TT, it then becomes a much more difficult/borderline decision. Make your decisions as easy as possible.

[Fnord]

AJ and KQ from EP is a leak IMO.

*Shudder* almost as bad as ATo and KJo......yesh....

So by that same logic KQ is almost as bad as AK?

If AQ is raising hand, why not raise 99? TT?

I'm opening 22 UTG at most tables.

[Fnord]

Rondavu, do you really think that is the optimal way to play AQo in EP? Limp/call?

what hands are calling an EP raise VS raising an EP limp? Why is this crucial to a hand like AQ?

$100 stacks, .5/1 blinds.

Rondavu limps AQ UTG
Fnord raises to $4 from the CO with 22+/Axs/AT+/KQ/Tens or better suited/Suited connected trash.
Rondavu calls.

Who's getting the best of it?

[Vrax]

Who's getting the best of it?

Player with position...?

[Fnord]

Who's getting the best of it?

Player with position...?

Pretend it's math class and the teacher isn't too keen on you just scribbling down a number...

[BankItDrew]

Who's getting the best of it?

Player with position...?

My thoughts exactly.

Another example:
Rondavu opens UTG w/AKs
Fnord raises w/TT

Fnord wins ?! Not yet.

[Fnord]

Another example:
Rondavu opens UTG w/AKs
Fnord raises w/TT

You nits open so tight that Fnord would much rather float to get maximum value out of his position. Fnord's 3-bet range there vs TAgg is AA/KK/suited connected trash. Maybe QQ/AK if he's feeling frisky and wants to gamble.

[BankItDrew]

Didn't you post a thread showing a fold UTG w/ AKh ?

[Fnord]

Didn't you post a thread showing a fold UTG w/ AKh ?

I've done it a couple times (didn't feel like gambling, about to leave table or quit for day), but haven't posted it. Certainly AKo is a routine fold when I put someone on a AA/KK/QQ/AK maybe JJ/AQ(s) kind of range. Particularly when other things like position are out of my favor.

[Lodogg]

[quote="Fnord I'm opening 22 UTG at most tables.[/quote]

I don't see any value in this move. Please elaborate further. Most of the time you are going to be facing 3 overcards and 1-3 opponents with position over you.

Maybe I'm missing something?

[Lukie]

Didn't you post a thread showing a fold UTG w/ AKh ?

If I remember correctly, I believe the hand went something like this:

tight UTG raiser bumps it to 4x. Fnord looks down at AhKh at a full table in UTG+1 and mucks.

Debatable, but certainly not horrible depending on what Fnord saw from him.

[Lukie]

Rondavu, do you really think that is the optimal way to play AQo in EP? Limp/call?

what hands are calling an EP raise VS raising an EP limp? Why is this crucial to a hand like AQ?

Personally (and I know people will disagree, especially Fnord), my range does tighten up a bit when there's a limper, particularly early position. Hands that may be worth an open from LP, such as an ATo, suddenly become folds, and I become more willing to limp marginal hands, suited/connected trash, etc.

If I'm holding a hand that is dominated by AQo, I'm certainly not calling a preflop raise with it, but on the same note, if an EP player limp/calls, I'm not going deep with an AJ/KQ type hand.

Simply put, if an EP limp/caller puts a lot of money in the pot with AQ against me, he's probably not getting the best of it. I think if you are going to play that hand in EP, it should be for a raise. Whats your plan for the hand assuming you limp/call? check/fold when you miss 7 out of 10 times? What about when you pair one of your hole cards, are you comfortable putting a lot of money in the pot OOP with an easily dominated hand?

[Lukie]

My EP limping range for 25NL is:
55 - JJ, KQ, AJ.

AJ and KQ from EP is a leak IMO.

I agree 100% at a full table.

[Lukie]

AJ and KQ from EP is a leak IMO.

*Shudder* almost as bad as ATo and KJo......yesh....

I suggest hoh1. Harrington talks about how kickers are on 'an accelerated depretiation scale' in one of his preflop chapters.

AJ/KQ type hands are still significantly stronger and much more playable than ATo/KJo type hands, which are often unplayable IMO.

[Lukie]

Rondavu, do you really think that is the optimal way to play AQo in EP? Limp/call?

what hands are calling an EP raise VS raising an EP limp? Why is this crucial to a hand like AQ?

$100 stacks, .5/1 blinds.

Rondavu limps AQ UTG
Fnord raises to $4 from the CO with 22+/Axs/AT+/KQ/Tens or better suited/Suited connected trash.
Rondavu calls.

Who's getting the best of it?

Rondavu may be ahead of Fnord's range here, but Fnord is absolutely, undoubtedly getting the best of it here, assuming equal post-flop skill level.

[Lukie]

Another example:
Rondavu opens UTG w/AKs
Fnord raises w/TT

You nits open so tight that Fnord would much rather float to get maximum value out of his position. Fnord's 3-bet range there vs TAgg is AA/KK/suited connected trash. Maybe QQ/AK if he's feeling frisky and wants to gamble.

nh, i like your line here.

[Fnord]

Gamble Gamble Gamble...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($92.05)
MP3 ($38.50)
CO ($80)
Button ($101.05)
SB ($56.75)
BB ($157.95)
UTG ($99.50)
Fnord ($139.40)
MP1 ($55.80)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with A, Q.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $3, 3 folds, CO raises to $5, 3 folds, Fnord calls $2.

Flop: ($11.50) K, 5, 3 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($11.50) K (2 players)
Fnord bets $7, CO calls $7.

River: ($25.50) Q (2 players)
Fnord bets $20, CO raises to $40, Fnord raises to $127.4, CO calls $28 (All-In).

Final Pot: $220.90

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ac Qc (flush, ace high).
CO has Ts Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins $220.90.

[Fnord]

I'm opening 22 UTG at most tables.

I don't see any value in this move. Please elaborate further. Most of the time you are going to be facing 3 overcards and 1-3 opponents with position over you.

Maybe I'm missing something?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($16)
UTG ($110.30)
UTG+1 ($97)
Fnord ($150.95)
MP2 ($21.85)
MP3 ($48.65)
CO ($44.20)
Button ($22.95)
SB ($107.35)

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 7, 7.
2 folds, Fnord raises to $3, 2 folds, CO calls $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($10) J, A, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $6, CO calls $6, SB folds.

Turn: ($22) 7 (2 players)
Fnord bets $12, CO calls $12.

River: ($46) 7 (2 players)
Fnord bets $24, CO calls $23.20 (All-In).

Final Pot: $93.20

Results in white below:
Fnord has 7s 7c (four of a kind, sevens).
CO has 3c Ah (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $93.19.

[Vrax]

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 7, 7.

Flop: ($10) J, A, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $6, CO calls $6, SB folds.

Since I decided to expand my raising range (a bit, just few decent hands more and 77 is raise-worthy hand IME), I have a couple question about that hand.

What was your plan, Fnord after your flop bet was called AND brick on turn instead of miracle 7?

Would you extract a value from potential drawing hands at the risk you are already beat by A or J?

Did you bet that flop with the intention of charging draws or you wanted to represent the board? (IOW does your hand have sufficient showdown value to bet that flop? Or it turns into 2 waffles and flop call would indicate that opponent paired with flop and your 77's should be mucked to his potential river bet or turn lead?)

Opponent called you down with small Ace. What was your read on him? "Weak tight nit", that can be bet off his TT or even QQ or "loose passive donk" that calls with variety of weaker hands+draws?

This style of play really interests me.....

[Fnord]

miracle 7

Was it really such a miracle? If he stacks off with Ax and rarely raises my c-bet, how often does my flop bluff need to work? How often does the turn go check/check? How often does the CO fold and the SB call, then give me a free river card to hit my "miracle"?