Alternate C-bet OOP?

[Lukie]

How does everyone feel about this line (c/c, bet)? It's a line I will often use OOP with a wide range when I'm not the preflop agressor (ie 2-3way pot when I call a PFR from the blinds). I know in isolation it's easy to say to bet out on the flop, but betting EVERY flop when you are the PFR, even heads up, is a mistake IMO. I don't want a check after I raise preflop to indicate that I'm giving up on the pot. I should be able to make this play with KQ or AA.

Discuss...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($176.45)
BB ($28.55)
UTG ($53)
UTG+1 ($104.90)
Hero ($102.55)
MP2 ($98.50)
CO ($155.95)
Button ($34.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, A.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $4, 3 folds.

Flop: ($9.50) 2, A, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $15, CO folds.

Final Pot: $36.50

[salsa4ever]

mmmm.... I'm not sure about a donk bet.

It just doesn't make enough sense to scare people off unless they were just taking a stab at it. Better to check raise and not give the free card. You can fold if re-raised from there.

Only reason to make this play is because you want the free card yourself and for pot control reasons. But this means your opponent can sense weakness and it's cheap enough for him to call down with 2nd pair.

I'd check raise as an alternate continuation play rather than do this

[RiverMonkey]

I agree with Salsa. The added benefit of the CR is that your OPP might call that 2nd flop bet "just to see the next card" thus you'll be getting more money in the pot when you are ahead before they fold on the turn.

What's would your plan be on the turn if your donk bet gets raised? With the CR line, you'd have more information to base your turn plan on, or as Salsa mentioned if your CR gets raised on the flop against most opponents you can fold knowing you're behind.

[Lukie]

I agree with Salsa. The added benefit of the CR is that your OPP might call that 2nd flop bet "just to see the next card" thus you'll be getting more money in the pot when you are ahead before they fold on the turn.

If I'm going to c/r with AJ here, I don't want my opponent to see a turn. Building a pot with this AJ on this board out of position with 2 more streets to come isn't good.

What's would your plan be on the turn if your donk bet gets raised? With the CR line, you'd have more information to base your turn plan on, or as Salsa mentioned if your CR gets raised on the flop against most opponents you can fold knowing you're behind.

I don't know how this is a donk bet, but if I'm raised on the turn, I obviously dump it. Maybe it's donk because it's not standard? I usually prefer a c/r over c/c+bet if I'm going to check then bet agressivel, but you have to be able to vary your play up. This line is pretty confusing from villain's point of view.. does the fact that I was the preflop agressor change the available plays I'm 'supposed' to make?

Just checking, I'm more interested in discussing various ways of getting a lot of money in the pot without doing the same thing everytime then I am about discussing this actual hand.

[RiverMonkey]

I agree with Salsa. The added benefit of the CR is that your OPP might call that 2nd flop bet "just to see the next card" thus you'll be getting more money in the pot when you are ahead before they fold on the turn.

If I'm going to c/r with AJ here, I don't want my opponent to see a turn. Building a pot with this AJ on this board out of position with 2 more streets to come isn't good.

I agree with you; the primary intent of the CR as a vary-it-up play it to take it down right there, not build a pot OOP. I intentionally didn't mention pot control because Salsa already did. I was just trying to say that it was a side benefit if they call your CR and go on to fold on the turn because you were WA the whole time.

Perhaps there are better spots/ways to convince your opponents that a check OOP doesn't always signal weakness and you should just play this hand in the std WA/WB manner.

To be honest, I don't know the story behind how that betting pattern was given the label 'donk bet'. I just use it because I've seen others use it. Not exactly an independent thinking kinda thing, is it. Now I feel like a dumb lemming.

[BankItDrew]

I don't see his bet as a donk bet. It looks to me like he was just trying to steal the pot right then and there. Since you showed resistance by calling then more resistance my leading the betting on the turn, he wasn't going to call... as if he was finished with putting any more money into the pot.

This is why I think a check raise is a good idea. The check raise will end the hand on the flop in this situation. A call on the other hand could offer him a card and one of his possible two outs. If he misses, he's still not going to call a bet on the turn.

You are probably ahead on the flop, check raise this bet and end it here. Don't let an opponent catch up, you only have a pair.

[salsa4ever]

donk bet defined:

call OOP on the flop, lead the turn OR

call OOP on he turn, lead on the river.

Doesn't matter whether the call is because u checked they bet, or you bet, and they raised

[Fnord]

NH sir. Particularly given how that game typically plays.

[Lukie]

donk bet defined:

call OOP on the flop, lead the turn OR

call OOP on he turn, lead on the river.

Doesn't matter whether the call is because u checked they bet, or you bet, and they raised

Call it what you want, it can be an effective line when used at the right time. Say you call a late position opener with AK from the blinds. HU to the flop. Flop is Axx rainbow. Villain is too tight to have played ace-rag or rag-rag here, so unless he has a freak set or the 1 combination of AA, you are best. How to get a lot of $$$ in? My favorites in this situation are c/r, c/c + donk bet, or just lead.

When you think about it logically, this line seems to make sense when you improve on the turn (or river), but for the sake of balance, your range has to include a lot of stuff no matter how your betting pattern goes.

[pizzatron]

I agree with Lukie on this one. A donk bet has its place strategically if you mix it up, and it's only a donk bet if it unnecessarily reveals information regarding your hand. For example, you may "donk bet" a set to trap, and a semi-competent opponent might perceive that as weakness.

[salsa4ever]

donk bet defined:

call OOP on the flop, lead the turn OR

call OOP on he turn, lead on the river.

Doesn't matter whether the call is because u checked they bet, or you bet, and they raised

Call it what you want, it can be an effective line when used at the right time. Say you call a late position opener with AK from the blinds. HU to the flop. Flop is Axx rainbow. Villain is too tight to have played ace-rag or rag-rag here, so unless he has a freak set or the 1 combination of AA, you are best. How to get a lot of $$$ in? My favorites in this situation are c/r, c/c + donk bet, or just lead.

When you think about it logically, this line seems to make sense when you improve on the turn (or river), but for the sake of balance, your range has to include a lot of stuff no matter how your betting pattern goes.

Upon further reflection i would have to agree that a donk bet has its uses.
In the example you give, you called a pre flop raise. Here, you made the pre flop raise and you're 'expected' to fire away and declining to do so is a sign of weakness.

I guess it depends on what you're trying to do. But here's what I'm thinking if I'm CO: you made a check call on the turn... maybe you've got a big hand and you wanna set up for a turn check-raise... uh oh then you got edgy cos a second heart fell on the turn and you decided you have to bet to protect your ace. Therefore I would believe you and fold. In this case you were presumably trying to get villain's chips into the pot and you failed.

Your question is 'can i make this play with KQ'. My answer would be that if I had KQ and wanted to make a 'play' (other than the standard cont bet), I would probably check raise it. Why don't you post a hand where you take this line on an unmade hand? How is this line better than check raising the flop if you've got either one pair or nothing?

On the 'mixing it up' point, yes I agree. If I check call the flop and lead the turn when I improve, and only when I improve, then that can be exploited and I can see your logic in throwing in a donk bet now and then with a made hand for deception purposes. If you get caught donk betting KQ, you might be able to do the same next time with when you do improve and get them to call. That's fine. I personally think deception is overrated, but what floats your boat on that one.

I guess the main point of my rambling post is: if you've got the best hand and you wanna put more money in the pot, how is donk betting better than raising? If you've missed the flop and wanna buy the pot, how is donk betting better than check raising?

Are you suggesting that it may be a good idea to do this once in a while just to throw off your opponents... (who like me would probably read too much into a donk bet)? If that's the case I agree in principle, but i wouldn't have done it on this particular hand.

[pizzatron]

Your question is 'can i make this play with KQ'. My answer would be that if I had KQ and wanted to make a 'play' (other than the standard cont bet), I would probably check raise it. Why don't you post a hand where you take this line on an unmade hand? How is this line better than check raising the flop if you've got either one pair or nothing?

When you have a strong hand and you want to build the pot, i think depending on the villain you may get more out of him by donk betting, if you can get him to raise the turn or he's overaggro. Whereas a check-raise right away might scare him off. Again, it's pretty player/situation dependent.

In the KQ example, a delayed donk bet bluff on the turn can sometimes scream "i really have it". On the contrary, a check-raise on the flop may be perceived as "i don't believe you, so i'm check-raising".