edudlive needs to find his place in this game

[edudlive]

I started out like a lot on here, I made a ~$100 deposit onto PokerStars. I made my online bankroll by investing $5 in my first home SNG type game and built it up playing those over the summer while studying up and reading FTR awaiting to take my shot at online glory.

I never played full ring, I went straight to the 6max tables at 10NL, I liked the better action and it seems that it suited my game anyway if I want to be results oriented... Anyway I stuck it out at 10NL until I had 20 buyins for 25NL and moved up. I stayed at 25NL for a long long time, and eventuallyl developed this semi-laggy gameplay. I'm no Ripptyde, I see a normalish amount of flops for 6max, but raise almost every hand I'm in and like to re-steal flops when I know they probably missed too etc...but of course do go into that true "laggy" mode at times if the table allows for it. It was a very profitable style for me at 25NL, I stayed until I had $1050 (however many buyins that is, 21?) for 50NL and moved up. I did ok at first, won a few hundred over my first week or so, then scored a big MTT win (chopped the 19:45 10FO on stars for $2,150ish) and pretty much tripled my bankroll. This is where everything seemed to go wrong for me. After that win I just never felt right (I'm thinking that I became scared of losing what I won in that MTT and it changed my style or my thinking, I'm not sure...so maybe I became too emotionally attatched), and also...my style started to really hurt me at 50NL. I could never get the so called rocks at that level to put any money in the pot until they had me beat. I could steal a few small pots on the flop but no matter how loose I got they never pay me (in a medium way, not a "give me your stack" way) unless they had a boat vs my flush, two pair vs my TPTK, nut flush vs my flush etc. I still have yet to beat that game. After a lot of disappointment at that level I decided to stick it out in some SNGs for a while. I did ok there (the $20s, I didn't feel I was really skillful enough to take on higher) and made a little bit of money, but I know that SNGs just aren't my thing...way too much grinding for my taste. At this point I really just stopping playing for the most part, I couldn't beat my level of ring, I didn't enjoy SNGs, and I honestly didn't have time to play 1-2 MTTs everyday (or even a few times a week to be honest)...then I decided to try 100NL.

This seemed (and still kind of seems) like a godsend for me. My hands get paid somewhat, there seem to be a lot of loose passive players as well as aggressive players that I can stack. However, I do run into a lot of people that I honestly can't beat and I get straight played. The money still means a lot to me (going back to what I said about being attatched up there), I don't like the idea of losing that kind of money, but I know its probably the best suited for my gametype. I've done fairly well over my first few thousand hands (yeah small sample I know but its never large enough anyway)..something like 7.7(PT)BB/100.

My last paragraph makes it seem like its all peechy-keen now and I've found my place but that isn't the case... I now (since the MTT win) just can't make myself play for extended periods of time...or really at all. I used to 4 table 25NL 6max for 4 hours a day everyday except weekends and have a ball doing so, but now I have to literally make myself sit down and play(my Operation thread in Poker Etc was partially about this, knowing I needed to play but couldn't make myself) ,and I'll admit that once I get 4 good tables up and quit thinking I do enjoy myself)...and this really bothers me. I love this game, I love winning, I love the money, I love outsmarting people...poker is perfect for me. So why can't I make myself play it? I'm at a loss... It is like that one win shattered my confidence in my entire game, after I proved that I had the ability to WIN at this game.

I'm not sure what to do FTR, hopefully you guys can sort this my rant and find something I can do.

[Muxy]

I tend to think you are playing to low if you find your "SNG
s" a boring grind.

You have well over 150 buy ins for the 20's. Unless you are multitabling 4 or more. I think you could move up.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Good post edud. I'm currently coming out of a very similar situation. A little over a month ago I was 6-tabling $100 NL 6-max on Stars for ~12bb/100 and making the occasional trip to $200 NL 6-max as I prepared to move up. All of the sudden I cashed in 3 MTTs for over 1K each in less than a week. My BR had mushroomed to over 10K and even after cashing out a significant amount I still almost tripled it.

Well I figured this was the perfect opportunity to start playing $200 NL 6-max regularly. I'm aware that after good run you sometimes have to fight the urge to suddenly play higher, but my rationale was that I already had some reasonable success at it the times I had previously tried and now I had a more than sufficient BR to handle a few bumps and bruises if they happened to occur. Well the bumps and bruises did come. It wasn't in huge chunks, but rather a continual grind down. Initially I cut back the number of tables I was playing to 4 and focused on getting more solid reads. I should have cut it back to two or even one since I didn't have much experience at that level yet, but I didn't. After 6-tabling $100 NL for so long I just couldn't make such a drastic reduction. My loses slowed to the point where I played 4,200 hands of $200 NL over a week and made $27. I was just breaking even.

I started to examine my hand histories. Due to my slow grind down and then subsequent break-even play after I reduced my number of tables, expected to see some small leaks that I could patch up. Small leaks are magnified even more due to the nature of 6-max so I thought that if I could identify them, then I could begin playing winning poker again. I noticed that I would make a steady profit playing solid, relatively Laggy poker (attacking weakness, relying on position, taking down pots that are for sale, etc.) only to lose it in pretty big chunks, sometimes even getting stacked. The cycle kept repeating itself over and over and I was getting no where. Then I noticed the big hands I was losing weren't all bad beats. Too many of them I was simply getting outplayed. I put my ego aside and acknowledged that I just didn't have the experience to consistently win at that level yet. I decided to return primarily playing $100 NL and single tabled $200 NL to gain experience.

The problem was that after routinely beating 6-max $100 NL, I was now losing and at a much faster rate than I was at $200 NL. On the few sessions I did win, I would quickly quit to protect what I had. After a week of this I just decided to quit poker completely. I was frustrated, my confidence was shot and my patience was growing thin. That combined with my upcoming finals was more than enough reason to step away for awhile. I didn't really play for the two weeks leading up to my finals, but I did a lot of thinking. I came up with several reasons for why I thought I was losing. 1) I moved up too soon. I knew the danger of that, but found a way to reason my way around it. 2) I didn't have the confidence I needed to be a winner. If you don't have it then you shouldn't play. I did though. 3) I was playing with scared money. I now had a much larger BR than I had ever had before and I was playing not to lose it. Several big wins (for me) in a row had me a bit dillusioned that downswings weren't part of the normal course of playing poker. Even small loses started to bother me although I could shrug them off before. Here I was having played for 1 1/2 years and starting to consider myself a decent player and I was experiencing my own version of the Newbie Circle of Death.

Well after finals and doing the family thing for the holidays I just started playing again. This time I took steps to eliminate my problems. Playing too high? I started back at 6-max $25 NL. Confidence issues? Well I figured that if I couldn't beat $25 NL then I should just quit playing for good. I am almost ready to move up $50 NL after only a few days. I say almost because I withdrew my entire BR except enough to play $25 NL. I withdrew it from all the sites I had it on to Neteller, then to the bank account I use for poker and then to a seperate savings account. The money essentially wasn't there anymore because it would've taken a few days to reverse all of that.

Now the steps I took are somewhat drastic. My discipline issues are not in the fact that I am unaware of pitfalls and mistakes or unwilling to remedy them. My problem is that although I am honest with myself and can identify problems, I often have to go to extremes to correct them. You probably don't have to the same lenghts I did to solve your problems but perhaps you can take the same ideas.

The more I play the more I realize how much of poker is mental. In my experience, getting out of a rut like this has more to do with confidence than anything else. Why do you play? You said you love the game. You said you love winning. You said you love the money. You said you love outsmarting people. Doing all these things give you confidence and by doing all these things you'll find that you want to keep on playing longer like you had been. When a professional athlete goes through a slump or a business person struggles, what do they do? They go back to the basics. The athlete concentrates on the fundamentals of their game. The business person goes back to the drawing board. Think back to where you were doing all these things...

You were doing it at $25 NL. I'm not saying you belong at $25 NL. From the little I've seen you play and from what I've heard from other people say, you're a much better player than that. The important thing though is that you know you'll be winner there. You'll be making money. Sure the amounts may be smaller, but making money is fun regardless of the amount. You know you'll be outsmarting the people at $25NL, unless of course you happen to run into me within the next couple of days... You'll be taking the other donks for their stacks left and right though. I don't care if I'm playing .01/.02 or 1/2, stacking someone is one of the best feelings in NL poker.

Winning and outsmarting people are what makes poker fun and are the basic components of building one's confidence. Keep thinking critically about the game, be honest with yourself, and regain/build your confidence and you'll find that you'll not only improve but have much more fun doing it.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I tend to think you are playing to low if you find your "SNG
s" a boring grind.

You have well over 150 buy ins for the 20's. Unless you are multitabling 4 or more. I think you could move up.

I also find SNGs to be boring and too much of a grind to play all the time. In edud's case I view it as playing a $20 SNG with a something like a 30% ROI for a whopping $6 after an hour of play. He instead he could play $100 NL and potentially make 20x that in a single hand. To me that, combined with the fact that ring games aren't as mechanical as SNGs, makes ring games more fun. I think sometimes it just comes down to what you enjoy more.

[r8ed]

I hope newbs read this thread. Two respected players who have success and the bankroll to back up their jump in stakes having this experience. If you guys are overbankrolled and having issues, it should further convince others to work their way up levels rather than jump up too early.

I think time off is good for you edudlive. I don't get to play as many hands as you guys, but I try to play 2-3 hours 5 nights a week. I'm excited to jump in front of my computer each time. I never feel forced into playing out of habit. But I know when I start to lose focus, I make some poor decisions and sometimes ruin sessions. If you sit down without focus and enthusiasm, you are in for a rough time. Take time off and wait until the day you just can't wait to play.

Great honest posts.

[Irisheyes]

I cant add much here because I've yet to find myself in a similar situation but I just wanted to say those are two great posts so well done. And for what its worth edudlive I think DaNuts's post sounds bang on the money.

[EasyT]

Good post, Edudlive.

NL$100 seems like it makes you uncomfortable, but NL$50 is boring/difficult for your style to play at. Switching sites might help you because there are places where NL$50 is not a boring rock-fest. I like the B2B sites for this fact (PM me if you want more infos).

But there are other issues in your post, which are linked to boredom not just table stakes. The solution might just be taking a break... Or the solution might be to play more MTTs...

Want another possible solution? DON'T PLAY ALONE. It can be a great motivator to have someone you know at your table!! Someone to share in your big wins and your bad beats. I volunteer to play with you anytime, Edudlive!!

EasyT

[Miffed22001]

I promised to post in this and upto now i didnt know what to say.
DanutsinYoeye's post is like perfect. It examines all the problems that one can have. Im another player who's had a rough ride recently. I too kat lot of time off both for personal and education reasons and simply i think i needed it. Id played a lot in not a long time and may have been burnt out.
So then i go win 1.4k in a week!
I think confidence is the issue in most cases and so is that feeling of not belonging. Pretty much ive always had one eye on how you've been doing, that just seemed to occur.
So i'd go wit hthe advice here. Go right back to the basics. Take away that money so its not an issue and go back to the grind. No matter what that is.
I think you'll be fine and i think also that getting some of the experienced player to watch you when you move back up again may help to improve you even more. You can play ive seen it and its been mentioned. It may just be that you need to add a little thinking to youre game to take it to that next level. That seems to have worked for me.