moving...err...down?

[acesn8tz]

I was hoping I could get some advice. I've only been playing about four months and would consider my play probably average. After reading Storms post about the "newbie circle of death" I would have to say thats where I am.

I started on the $10nl tables at pacific, and went up and down. After coming up $500 I switched to the $50, got punished and moved back down.

Took a small break. Used my winnings to buy a couple of books and have spent a lot of time on this site. I really don't see much of a need to post questions, because most of them are answered here someplace, but as other players are moving up levels, I find myself in the unenviable postion of considering moving down. I am up exactly $9

I have had some rough hands, which is normal, and I've been trying to play more aggressively, so I guess variance is something I should get used to.

I guess my question is, if it is really one long session, would I be better to just add to my bankroll and continue to play at the level where I have suffered some bad beats, hoping the odds catch up? Or would it be better to move back down.

I think the key point before one could answer is why am i losing. This post already looks too long to me but a couple of examples are;

going all in pf on a shorthand table (6players) with kk and losing to A9o

three hands later (after I bought back in for the full amount) raising preflop with AA getting PUT all in by another player with JJ and watching him catch a Jack

holding pocket twos, calling a raise 3x the bb flop is aa2. I went all in, thinking that so many cards coming would hurt me and the AQ called and caught the q on the river.

dealt AKs raised 4x the bb from utg. 1 caller. flop is two of my suit, no overcards and the board wasnt paired. I bet the pot and am put all in. I called because the guy was aggro and I thought he didnt have a pocket pair. no hearts come (the guy had called me with 8To and beat me with a pair of eights. (checked it on the odds calculator and i was only like a 54%favorite, so this was probably a mistake, but I did have 15 outs)

If it sounds like I'm whining, I'm not. But I really want to use this site's advice about bankroll mangagment and right now I am not really bankrolled to play the level where I would like. ($25nl tables) My concern is that if I move down and things turn around, I'll still be behind because the winnings at a lower level will not compensate for my losses at a higher level.

I'm sorry for the length of the post. Would appreciate any advice you could give.

[poskid_1982]

Don't worry about compensating your losses immediately. We all have losses that every now and again require us to drop a level. It sounds like you are thinking of poker as a short term monetary goal...BAD idea. Poker is a game of the long haul. Most of the truly good players on this site have played for years and can tell you that it isnt how much money you've made in the last month...it's how much you made in the past year.

It's hard when you are starting out to play poker to not feel every little up and down. Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with moving down to slow the leaks and start playing winning poker again.

[jnz]

I am not really bankrolled to play the level where I would like.

You just answered your own questions right here.

My concern is that if I move down and things turn around, I'll still be behind because the winnings at a lower level will not compensate for my losses at a higher level.

...and the alternative would be? Not moving down and continue losing big stacks!? How will losing even more money compensate?

I believe you deep down know that you shouldnt be playing out of your bankroll, but you "hope" to "get lucky" and win what youve lost back fast and easy. But thats not thinking long term. All the good players who know what they are talking about keep emphasizing that poker is long term.
So unless you plan to just play the game for one more night and thats it, move down.

If youre still not sure what to do, move down while you think about it :>

[EricE]

Besides, confidence plays a factor in poker. You will gain more confidence by moving down and going back into the black.

[Aces]

Taking a break is smart. May need to do that more often before losing your BR. Studying/reading also very smart. Look at your hand histories if you're not already doing so.

Play within your BR. It makes sense for most people to be able to consistantly beat the level they're playing at and build enough for the next level before moving up. If you need to move down to stay within your BR, then do that. You've only been playing 4 months. I know it hurts to lose back the $500, but trying to recoup it quickly will likely compound the problem. At this point, learning and gaining experience should be more important then making money.

Looks like your examples are some bad beats. Nothing you can do. Do you react by tilting after that, or do you keep playing the same? You will get more variance playing shorthanded. Might consider playing full ring games or SNGs.

It's impossible to say why you're losing(or actually just not winning - you're still up $9 which is more then can be said for most). Post specific questions or hand histories in the approriate forum and you should get some clues.

[acesn8tz]

thanks for your advice you guys and for taking the time to reply. I guess I'm probably just going to take a break for a bit. The thought of going down to the $10 dollar tables kills me not because I can't admit that there are things I have to learn, but because the strategy i've learned here doesn't always apply in those games. You can't outplay an unthinking opponent, and while there are those at any level, the smallest tables abound with them.

That said, I guess it is those same kind of players that dealt me some bad beats at the $25. So I guess when I come back, it'll be back in the $10 freefire zone.

I have to admit to myself it has affected my game, (the bad beats). And I do have a lot to learn, so I'll just take my books with me to Bali (leaving for 12 days next week ) relax and comeback ready to play solid poker.

[Aces]

Sounds like your on the right track. Have fun in Bali...

[suryodaya]

"You can't outplay an unthinking opponent"

If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing poker at all. If they're not thinking, you can beat them by playing simple, logical, by-the-odds poker. Let them make the mistakes. Honestly, think about it - if you can't outplay an unthinking opponent, then fish would be winning all the big tournaments while all the pros are scrapping for pennies against each other...!? To me it actually sounds like you need to go back to basics, learn how to beat the unthinking people, THEN play the thinking people again!

I'm not trying to say this out of any sense of superiority or feeling I'm a great poker player. I am at the level of learning how to beat the unthinking players, and I will NOT be moving up until I'm confident of doing it consistently. It's bread and butter. Poker is a game involving serious calculation and skill and people who are not thinking are like blindfolded fencers. They might get lucky once in a while, but if you know what you're doing you can beat them by letting them beat themselves...

[WhooFleuryScores]

You've only been playing 4 months. I know it hurts to lose back the $500, but trying to recoup it quickly will likely compound the problem. At this point, learning and gaining experience should be more important then making money.

I second that.If you have to grind it out at the 25NL for a while do it.I had been planning on moving up to 100NL but the skid I was in has "delayed that".No worries.The same fish who are there now will be replaced by new ones when you are ready.

[acesn8tz]

Just wanted to take the time to say thanks again to those that replied. Took the advice to take a break, ignored the advice about moving down. Well, I did go down for a week, but it just didnt take. Went back up to the $50 tables and did well. I'm up 3 grand now, and have experimented with the $100 tables. I've played break even there though, and have moved back down to the $50 because the players are easier. I think as long as I can avoid playing at the same table as Rondavu I'll be ok.

It just took a little while to let the numbers build up. One thing I forgot to mention was that when I did lose a big hand, I used a hand simulator to see where I was at when I pushed/ or called the all in. I was ahead 90% of the time, so when you lose those ones, I dont think you should let it change your game.

Again, FTR, you guys are gold. Thanks for taking the time away from your game to help others with theirs.

[Miffed22001]

nice going man
id stick away from the games rondavu plays too :P

[Laeelin]

Thats a HUGE mistake, and even worse, it paid off this time so you are more likly to do it again.

even Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu would go broke if they didnt have a follow basic bankroll guidelines.

The bankroll rules are not there to stop you from moving up to fast, they are there because even the best players in the world still have loseing days (even weeks).

If you dont have the bankroll for the limits your playing at, you WILL go broke....

Not you "might" go broke, but you WILL go broke. It's simply a matter of time...

Playing outside your bankroll is so simple and easy to fix, but breaks more good players than anything else.

Fix that problem or your a loseing player even if your the best player in the world!

[acesn8tz]

? umm...well I left a grand in the account cashed out the rest......so with 20 times the table buy in i think i am properly rolled to play the 50 tables.

[Laeelin]

ignored the advice about moving down.

I missunderstood that part

[salsa4ever]

this has gotten me thinking...

"u need X buy-ins" (X = 30, 50, 100) however conservative u want to be.

Well, if you're having a downswing, AND YOU ARE STILL PLAYING WELL, then there's nothing wrong with depositing more money into your account, is there? It seems we're often blinkered by our own "bankroll" as if it's a SNG tourney with no rebuys, when in fact the reality is different?

[Laeelin]

this has gotten me thinking...

"u need X buy-ins" (X = 30, 50, 100) however conservative u want to be.

Well, if you're having a downswing, AND YOU ARE STILL PLAYING WELL, then there's nothing wrong with depositing more money into your account, is there? It seems we're often blinkered by our own "bankroll" as if it's a SNG tourney with no rebuys, when in fact the reality is different?

It's a bad idea.

If you want to play the lottery, go buy a lottery ticket.

If you want to play good poker, then play good poker. (and good poker follows bankroll guidlines)

People act like building up your bankroll is some huge horrible problem, but it only takes a little while to earn the money to play at whatever limit you want to play at, if you really have the skill to play there.

If you dont have the bankroll for $50NL, then play $25NL and earn it. If your going to make money at $50, then you will make money at $25, and before long at all you will be playing at $50NL or even $200NL

In fact you will earn the money to move up WAY before you even have enough hands to have even the start of a real idea of how good you are at that level.

I moved from $10NL (.05/.10) to $400NL in less than 4 months of playing in bankroll. It's not this long horrible process.

Playing in bankroll saves you a LOT of money, lets you quickly reach whatever limit you have the skill for, and is totally safe.

Playing out of bankroll costs money, puts you at a limit that you THINK you have the skill for even if you dont, and will always lose in the long run.

Play Smart.

Play in bankroll.

Well, if you're having a downswing, AND YOU ARE STILL PLAYING WELL, then there's nothing wrong with depositing more money into your account, is there?

Another thing to remember is that about 4 out of 5 times when someone thinks they are in a downswing they end up finding out that it's not simply a downswing. It's some new leak (or three) that needs to be fixed.

A LOT of losing players think that they are just having bad luck, and keep addign more money into the account. A good player fixes the problem and rebuilds. Dont let youself be that losing player that wakes up one day to realise that over the last 5 years they have spent $50,000 on poker.