Disagreement at work: Is this a bad beat?

[cryptyk]

So I got worked on this hand and sent the history to a couple guys that play here at work, bitching about the bad beat. Now we're split almost 50/50 on whether this is qualifies as a "bad beat" or just "a crappy way to lose".

What are your votes?

I get dealt 88 and limp in for the blind (0.50) in 5th position. 7th position raises to 4x ($2) and the button and I both call.
3 of us to the flop and it comes 358 rainbow. I flop top set and bet about 50% of the pot ($3). 7th position calls and the button raises my bet over 3x to ($10). I push all in for 4x his raise ($40) and the middle guy folds. Button calls.

I flip over my 88 and he shows Aces. Fourth and Fifth street come 2, 4 giving him the running wheel draw.

So here is the disagreement. I say its a bad beat because my calling 4x with a wired pair is reasonable. Some other guys are claiming the best cards won so it can't be a bad beat. I'm not saying that I wouldn't call that ragged board with AA...just that he got a lucky draw.

Any thoughts?

[edudlive]

according to card player's calculator:

AhAs
8c8d

3s5c8h

88 is a 89.8% favorite there vs AA being 10.2%

AA was basically drawing to 2 outs + the runner wheel.

Losing when you're an 9-to-1 favorite is a horrible monster of a bad beat not matched by many..

[EricE]

Your money went in (all in) when you were ahead. That is the definition of a bad beat.

[johnny_fish]

Board: 8c 5d 3h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 89.7980 % 89.80% 00.00% { 8d8s }
Hand 2: 10.2020 % 10.20% 00.00% { AcAh }

Yes, this is a bad beat.

[Demiparadigm]

yes, what defines a bad beat is when the money goes in.
You got you money in with WAY the best of it.
Had you both been all in preflop, and flopped top set, and lost to a running wheel, it would not be a bad beat, but a horrible way to lose.

[Zangief]

Your money went in (all in) when you were ahead. That is the definition of a bad beat.

This is absolutely true.

But I have found in the past that it is difficult to argue against people who believe that AA should always win. Some people think that if they deliver a bad beat with AA that it is just "the universe returning to the way it should be".

[r8ed]

It's borderline because he has AA and the board is non threatening. Not many people lay this down. I had trip Q's yesterday on the flop and pushed. AA hit trips on the river. I thought to myself, would I lay it down? Probably not. I think AA should be exempt

[DaHorror]

It's so tough to lay down AA on the stupid micro limits tables anyway - I woulda layed it down in this case but I had someone pull a similar stunt on me yesterday an all they had was top pair top kicker that they reraised allin with...

But there's no question that the situation described in this thread was a bad beat for the 88.

[Les_Worm]

I agree that its a bad beat because your money went in when you had the best of it. If you got all in preflop, flopped your set, then got outdrawn its just a sucky way to lose. This is a bad beat.

[CrunchyNuts]

The play of AA has nothing to do with it...the actuality of the hand is that the set of 8's got a bulk of the pot in the middle with a 9-1 advantage and lost. That's a bad beat.

My condolances.

[a500lbgorilla]

The correct answer is that your co-worker is right.

If he believes that the best two cards winning in the end is all that bad beats are about, don't try and fix that notion. He probably has all sorts of glaring leaks in his game that he'll never patch. Just invite him to your game and take his money with a friendly face.

-'rilla

[Lukie]

It's borderline because he has AA and the board is non threatening. Not many people lay this down. I had trip Q's yesterday on the flop and pushed. AA hit trips on the river. I thought to myself, would I lay it down? Probably not. I think AA should be exempt

We aren't talking about whether or not the player holding AA played the hand correctly. This is a terrible beat...

I agree with 'rilla though.. no need to argue with him.. just play with him and take his money.

[TalentedTom]

I like cheese sandwich.

[ProZachNation]

no this is a bad beat

4 left in a SnG, me and 2 other guys have about 3k in chips small stack has 1k or so. I get A3 and limp in folds to the BB(shortstack) he checks. Flops Comes A3blank. I push with what will put half of his stack in if he calls he goes all In I happily call. He flips AJ I am like nice, then a 5 hits, and another 5 hits he takes the pot with AA55J(kicker) now that hurts.

[BankItDrew]

Bad Beat.

Because you had the best hand when your hands were flipped over.

A bad beat is whenever the cards are flipped over and the player that is ahead, ends up loosing.

[cartilago77]

Your money went in (all in) when you were ahead. That is the definition of a bad beat.

This is absolutely true.

But I have found in the past that it is difficult to argue against people who believe that AA should always win. Some people think that if they deliver a bad beat with AA that it is just "the universe returning to the way it should be".

This is absolutely NOT true. So any time you are ahead and you get your money in it is a bad beat? What if you are ahead 52-48?

[dalecooper]

A lot of players confuse "bad beat" with "bad play." They're arguing about whether the guy with aces made a good or reasonable call, which is immaterial. You were the favorite when the money went in - in this case the heavy favorite - so yes, this is a bad beat.

[EricE]

Your money went in (all in) when you were ahead. That is the definition of a bad beat.

This is absolutely true.

But I have found in the past that it is difficult to argue against people who believe that AA should always win. Some people think that if they deliver a bad beat with AA that it is just "the universe returning to the way it should be".

This is absolutely NOT true. So any time you are ahead and you get your money in it is a bad beat? What if you are ahead 52-48?

If you were a 50.000000000000001% favorite when the money went in and you lost then it was a bad beat. That is the definition of bad beat.

[chardrian]

Your money went in (all in) when you were ahead. That is the definition of a bad beat.

This is absolutely true.

But I have found in the past that it is difficult to argue against people who believe that AA should always win. Some people think that if they deliver a bad beat with AA that it is just "the universe returning to the way it should be".

This is absolutely NOT true. So any time you are ahead and you get your money in it is a bad beat? What if you are ahead 52-48?

If you were a 50.000000000000001% favorite when the money went in and you lost then it was a bad beat. That is the definition of bad beat.

Yup - it's just not as bad of a beat as AA vs 27o all-in preflop.

[Lukie]

I disagree.

Let's say there is a tourney, 2 players allin preflop. One has 88, the other has AKs. This kind of situation happens all the time. AKA coinflip.

If AKs wins, do you really call this a bad beat? When it's something like 52-48? It sucks when you lose these, regaurdless of which hand you hold, but if I lose this holding the PP, I don't call it a bad beat.

[underminedsk]

I disagree.

Let's say there is a tourney, 2 players allin preflop. One has 88, the other has AKs. This kind of situation happens all the time. AKA coinflip.

If AKs wins, do you really call this a bad beat? When it's something like 52-48? It sucks when you lose these, regaurdless of which hand you hold, but if I lose this holding the PP, I don't call it a bad beat.

The point is that in this guys situation his set of eights was a monster favorite (9:1) over the other guys aces. Your example is irrelvant because its basically a coinflip. Sure the pp has maybe 55:45 on the AK, but that doesnt mean you want to push with mid pockets every time you think hes going to race you with two overs . You should however be totally comfortable with pushing with 90% odds to win.

(maybe thats not the clearest explaination, someone help?)