Fourth Street Blues

[DogOnMySide]

This topic is about the turn card, which I think is the most difficult street to play well. Especially if you are first to act.

I'm not sure how to best start an open discussion about it so I think i will just write some fairly common generic scenarios and see how people deal with them. Feel free to ignore them and just discuss!

Scenarios:

1) You are first to act, you flopped the nuts, you checked the flop and it was checked behind. The turn isn't an ace.

2) First to act, flopped a set, board has straight or flush possibilities. You bet the flop and were called. The turn is a blank
2a) Same, but the turn is a danger card (e.g. 4-flush or 4-straight now on the board)

3) PFR with connectors, first to act, flopped a strong draw, made continuation bet which was called, turn is a blank
3a) Same, but turn is a danger card

I dunno whether to post this. I'm expecting a flurry of "it depends" and "there's not enough information". You get the idea though.

I just think (and expect others will agree) that preflop and flop it's often easy to either get away or get involved... on the river it's often quite straightforward... Wheras on 4th, you fewquently feel sort of torn between attack and defence.

Thoughts? Comments? Insults? Opinions? Rants?

[Rondavu]

Overload dude. I can smell my brain. It's toasty.

[DogOnMySide]

LOL

Me: "Yay i got my rondavu reply this might kick things off"
You: "overload"
Me: "Ah crap."

trouble is i start something off, think "no that sounds crap and total n00bish" and end up trying to write an answer for my own question.

[Rondavu]

As these things come up, save the hand history and present it in the correct forum. You'll get a crap load of analysis on that specific 4th street situation. When you do it, modify the hand history to stop the action when the 4th card drops. You'll know what you did, and then you can hear what other people would have done and why.

[Lukie]

I agree with Rondavu, but it can never hurt to discuss general strategies.. at least I don't think so.

Scenarios:

1) You are first to act, you flopped the nuts, you checked the flop and it was checked behind. The turn isn't an ace.

I'd throw out a bet.. maybe 1/2 pot size that I'm hoping gets raised behind.

2) First to act, flopped a set, board has straight or flush possibilities. You bet the flop and were called. The turn is a blank

I assume straight or flush possibilities means 3-flush or 3-straight. This is a tough one and really depends on the situation. Normally I bet again here.

2a) Same, but the turn is a danger card (e.g. 4-flush or 4-straight now on the board)

Check. Hope for a check behind to see if you make a boat. If he bets, call or fold depending on pot odds and implied odds. Maybe go for a check-raise if you think your opponent is full of shit.

3) PFR with connectors, first to act, flopped a strong draw, made continuation bet which was called, turn is a blank
I don't know why I'm in a pot where I raised preflop wtih connectors and didn't have position. Maybe I'm on the CO and the BN called me? This really depends on the situation, but I'd say check/fold or check/call mode. See above about pot odds and implied odds.

3a) Same, but turn is a danger card
Danger card for you, or danger card from an observer? Ie. is it an unpaired ace? Did the board pair? You made your straight? Made your straight but paired the board and brought a flush? Not sure how to answer this because I'm not sure what a 'danger' card is in this situation.

I agree with you in that the turn is probably the hardest street to play.[/i]

[jukejointroach]

2) First to act, flopped a set, board has straight or flush possibilities. You bet the flop and were called. The turn is a blank

I assume straight or flush possibilities means 3-flush or 3-straight. This is a tough one and really depends on the situation. Normally I bet again here.

the 4th street continuation bet. any action here and you're probably beat. or some jackass is hanging around with middle pair ace kicker.

[dsaxton]

Put the other guy on a range of hands, decide how he'd be likely to act on them given your action, and figure out how to maximize gains / minimize losses. There isn't really a single, unambiguous answer to this question.

[DogOnMySide]

No, there definitely isn't a 'single unambiguous answer' to this... but then I wasn't looking for an answer, more a discussion.

As Rondavu said - better to post specific hands and situations, perhaps.

I guess Fnord can get away with posting uber-vague rhetorical questions with no real conclusion because he's got the cachet of being a successful player and people will improve from his advice!

I like Lukie's response though. You're right in saying that 3 and 3a is a bit of an unlikely scenario. More likely to have position here, unless you're playing a pretty LAG strategy... sometimes I do find myself here though... I raise in CO or button and one of the blinds calls...

Anyway, cheers for posting.

[Infamous]

You'll find that most people - especially low limits - will only play their own cards. There's nothing wrong with this, but once you know what their value of certain hands are, you will be able to find the likelyhood of their holding a hand which is dangerous for you.

I generally make a lot of notes. It keeps me concentrated on the table because it's easy to be distracted with so much to do online. I like to note what hands players show down and how they played the, Did they limp AXs from EP and then call pot bets on the flop and turn to river their flush? Maybe they raise any suited connectors PF?

If you flop the nuts and give a free card, then you may as well bet it out. If you can get an active player to come along with a half pot bet, then great, but generally players will only come any further if they like their hand - whether you have the nuts or not doesn't matter greatly at this point.

If you flop a set and are called on the flop only for a scare card to come, what is the likelyhood of them holding the hand you're scared of? Would they have called on a gutshot, have you seen them chase before? Would they play TPTK the same way, and how about second pair? If you're out of position I think a bet is still correct. Do you want to announce that the turn card just froze you in your tracks? Some students of WPT will call with anything on the flop to see how you react to this, and I've taken down bigger pots by just grabbing my balls and betting again.

Checking if you think they have it is fine. Some of them will go all in for 4x the pot and depending on the player you can take down a large pot with any pair here. I also bet the flop on the draw to those hands which you would be scared of in this situation, and then check when they hit. If (in the unlikely event) your opp pays attention, and you can keep them confused as to your holding, all the better (although it must be said that a lot of them don't care what you have - this still keeps you a few steps ahead of them).