A bankroll of 500 to Zero.

[Werddown]

Hey everyone

I've been playing online at Paradise for the last month or so, trying to figure out this whole online poker craze. I started at the lowest limit there ($2 nl micro tables), with a deposit of $100. Actually I first started on Party, and lost a few $50 deposits just trying to learn the online game.

I didn't find too much success at the $2 tables, for the same reasons most people complain about (people call too much and get lucky). So I moved up to the $10 NL tables, only to find pretty much the same situation.

To $25 NL I go! Okay, so I'm breaking even here on the 25 NL tables for about a week or so, and decide to try my hand at some $10 SnG buyin tournies. I had some success here, finishing ITM a good percentage of the time, but still finding that I was getting knocked out early alot of times as well.

Being the impatient fish that I am, I decide to buy in to a $50 SnG, with hopes of winning BIG money! FIRST PLACE! $250. Man am I happy with this. I can continue buying in to these big buyin SnGs and get paid off huge! Wrong. After losing about 5 $50 tournies in a row I decide maybe I got ahead of myself, and I'll drop back down to the $10 tournies.

Only now, I'm losing big, finishing ITM maybe 1 out of 10 tournies that I buy into. Okay, maybe SnG isnt for me, back to the cash games.

I'm getting frustrated with the $25 NL tables, still breaking even, and sometimes even losing BR over the course of a few days. So I decide, "I'm going to play a $100 NL cash game!"

My first 100 NL game... I Quadruple up to $400. I'VE FOUND MY GAME! The second game I buy into, I triple up to $300. Finally, real players that I can bluff out of pots!

So my bankroll is topping at about $570 now, and I'm already feeling like Sklansky with a hard-on. I'll just camp these 100NL tables and get paid off. Needless to say, after losing my buyin at the next 10 tables I join, I decided I got ahead of myself again (a common tale I'm sure). I'm back down to about $170 now, so I move back to the dreaded $25 NL tables.

Only this time, I'm getting hammered. The players seem to have improved ten fold on these tables and are absolutely demolishing me every single hand that I decide to play. A set? You lose to a straight. Straight? Didn't see that BACKDOOR FLUSH coming, did you?

Werddown, just bet big when you make your hand... dont let them out draw you! So I bet harder. And I lost that much harder

Ten minutes ago my bankroll reached $5 and I came to this forum which I've used to better my gameplay, and decide to make this post, as a cry for help.

I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO QUIT. I know it's just my foolish newbie poker sense telling me "This is impossible! No matter how good I play, I cannot win! Poker is all LUCK!". And I know most players have been there before.

So help me obi wan kanobi. You're my only hope. Please make any suggestions you can as to how I can get over this losing hump and start seeing some return on my investment.

Am I playing at the WRONG place? Is paradise packed with WSOP winners just camping the lower tables? Or am I playing the wrong game? Too inexperienced to expect to win? I know its foolish to think that I should be a winning player with only a couple months of experience under my belt, but I really DO feel like I'm playing good poker. I've read a couple of poker books, have a few friends that have a few years of online experience that I talk to and play with, discussing every hand that I can. I feel like I have good understanding of the game.

I just don't understand how to WIN at the game.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a fish ranting and complaining, but it's really not. It's a cry for help. I need some old wise man in the mountains insight to get me remotivated to put my next $100 into the game, tell me where I should put it (what program), and tell me how this happens to everyone.


You read that entire thing? You really ARE bored!

[Werddown]

I realize perhaps this post might have been better suited for the "Beginners Circle" forum.

You can move it there for me if you want, or keep it here if it seems appropriate!

[vqc]

I read the whole thing.

The quickest most concise reply is this.
If you cannot beat the fish at the lower levels, you have no chance against the players at the hiighest level.
Poker is not about making people fold.

[Werddown]

I read the whole thing.

The quickest most concise reply is this.
If you cannot beat the fish at the lower levels, you have no chance against the players at the hiighest level.
Poker is not about making people fold.

This is something I've learned the hard way

I think what I was really trying to say, was that I felt like people were playing more toward the standard of "Real Tournment Poker" , making plays I found easier to read and easier to semi-bluff off their hands, if I felt like they didnt like the hand.

The only problem is that other players could figure out my play pretty quickly, and take advantage. I realize I shouldn't be playing at the high limits.

[Toe]

Read the posts on here regarding bankroll management.

[biondino]

And the newbie circle of death thread, definitely. All this moving around is also going to be a big contributory factor.

Essentially, you need to calm down, make a plan, stick to a level/format, read loads about it, play tight, conservative poker and develop an instinct for the game. Don't even think about what happens beyond this.

[Rondavu]

Poker is a strange game. It seems so simple until you play it for a while and realize you knew next to nothing when you started playing it. My advice is to stay within your bankroll at all times and hit your milestones of knowledge in a safe place. Anyone can sit at 100NL with a big chunk of their roll and get lucky. The thing is the people at 100NL have a lot more experience than you and are favored to drain you based on it. The longer you sit with players who have more experience, the more inevitable it becomes that a sad bust fest will occur.

Learn the game within the comfort of smart bankroll management. Some day you'll sit at 100NL with the right to be there. All your problems are based on inexperience and irresponsible banking. Believe that your sitting with superior players, and you'll quickly realize your asking for trouble by doing so for very long without proper financing.

[DaHorror]

I concur with the other responses.
This is a big issue of bankroll management and patience.
I started in June with $50 at Pacific playing the $10 NL tables (5c/10c).
4 months later...I am still playing the $10 NL tables at Pacific with a $370 bankroll.
Do I want to move up to the $25 NL tables and make more money? Hell ya! Am I ready to blow $25 in one bad beat hand? Hell no! So at the $10 tables I still sit...waiting to hit about the $425 mark so I can stomach a couple of dropped buyins.

The other suggestion I have is that you might want to try a different site. I can't particularly suggest one, though I would avoid Absolute Poker (had a lot of bad luck there playing the same game I've played successfully at Pacific for months). But sometimes you just have to move around and try your luck at a different spot.

Best of luck - and don't give up!

[CrunchyNuts]

I didn't find too much success at the $2 tables, for the same reasons most people complain about (people call too much and get lucky).

I read the whole thing, but I knew exactly what was going to happen after I read this sentence. The $2 tables on Paradise is some of the easiest poker you will ever see. If you cannot make a profit there you do not have the patience and discipline to do this up right.

[thirteen]

I read the whole thing.

The quickest most concise reply is this.
If you cannot beat the fish at the lower levels, you have no chance against the players at the hiighest level.
Poker is not about making people fold.

I think this is the best answer anyone can give you. Well put, concise and to the point without being insensitive.

I'm a NL $10 player(at pacific) and while it is very fishy, you will make money playing ABC poker, which is what you need to learn first. Of course you'll get drawn out on, it happens but if you stick to a solid game (sometimes sticking to your game is the hardest part). Seriously, except for the extreme bankroll loss, I'm in a similar situation. I tried moving up to a slightly higher level, realized i was outclassed quickly and took my $130 bankroll back to NL $10.

I've also thought, well if i bet bigger, they won't draw out on me. WRONG! You'll either scare them out of the pot when they would have paid you off or you may get called by a better hand. Don't push all in with that set. Make a good pot sized bet, maybe less and give them bad odds to make the call. If they draw out, well, that sucks, let an f-bomb go and move on. Hope that they do it again and again, because eventually you'll win back your money and then some.


If you can't feed on the fish, then who will you feed on?

What this really comes down to is: Do you want to be a fish in a shark tank or a shark in a fish tank?

[LeFou]

I didn't find too much success at the $2 tables, for the same reasons most people complain about (people call too much and get lucky).

I read the whole thing, but I knew exactly what was going to happen after I read this sentence.

Yep. One of your books probably said that if people call too much it's quite easy to beat them: bet your marginal hands for value on the river. Stop getting haywire on the flop because you've got a tough-to-beat hand (overpair, set). Cash in when they call multiple small bets with mid/bottom pairs, crappy kickers.

Are you sure they're getting lucky? Write it down. Write down each and every hand in which you're betting the pot or more to protect your holdings. Or use pokertracker. You'd be surprised. I've got a story:

I've been playing this ubertight style that I won't go into, but was a little frustrated that the profits weren't rolling in. Was all pist about my bad luck, etc. So I started noting each hand I played.

What do you know! Here I am shoving AI with pocket tens and there are two aces on board. You'll never believe what card the guy showed when he called me. No, really, guess.

Don't base self-analysis (of yr poker game or yr life) on recollections, because you'll recall only the most emotional (usually the most unfortunate) events. The way you jump around stakes and games indicates that your emotions are more-or-less playing the game for you.

[thirteen]

I concur with the other responses.
This is a big issue of bankroll management and patience.
I started in June with $50 at Pacific playing the $10 NL tables (5c/10c).
4 months later...I am still playing the $10 NL tables at Pacific with a $370 bankroll.
Do I want to move up to the $25 NL tables and make more money? Hell ya! Am I ready to blow $25 in one bad beat hand? Hell no! So at the $10 tables I still sit...waiting to hit about the $425 mark so I can stomach a couple of dropped buyins.

The other suggestion I have is that you might want to try a different site. I can't particularly suggest one, though I would avoid Absolute Poker (had a lot of bad luck there playing the same game I've played successfully at Pacific for months). But sometimes you just have to move around and try your luck at a different spot.

Best of luck - and don't give up!

Mind if i ask what your average hourly rate is pacific? I just started playing there a few days ago. So far my BR is up but i'm not taking in as much per hour as i'd like.

I see people raking it in at $10 NL. I was at a soft NL $10 table this week and I saw a guy sit down at my table for $10 and leave with $70, in that same abount of time I only went from $10 to $28

I was playing at bugsy's so i think i need to change my approach since the players at pacific are much fishier.

[Werddown]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for the great advice. You really have convinced me not to give up.

It seems that being profitable in online play is a far more tedious and lengthened process than I imagined. I see that this is something everyone eventually has to discover.

I'm going to grind it out at the low limits, and hope to see a small return.

The only question I have is this:

Should I continue playing at Paradise? Or are there better programs suited for a player like myself?

One thing about paradise is that they have the $2 and $10 NL tables. I noticed when I played Party, the lowest limit was $25 NL (or .5/$1 blinds). One thought that crossed my mind is that there may be alot of fish on the $25 NL tables at party, since it is a heavily promoted site (then again, all of them are pretty heavily promoted now), and that is the lowest limit they can play at.

If I continue playing on paradise, should I move down to the $2 NL tables and grind it out? Or do you think $10 NL may be suited more for me?

How do the $25 NL tables at party and on other programs compare to the 2 and 10 dollar tables on Paradise. Is there really that much of a difference between $2 NL players on paradise and $10 NL players?

[Werddown]

First, I'd like to thank everyone for the great advice. You really have convinced me not to give up.

It seems that being profitable in online play is a far more tedious and lengthened process than I imagined. I see that this is something everyone eventually has to discover.

I'm going to grind it out at the low limits, and hope to see a small return.

The only question I have is this:

Should I continue playing at Paradise? Or are there better programs suited for a player like myself?

One thing about paradise is that they have the $2 and $10 NL tables. I noticed when I played Party, the lowest limit was $25 NL (or .5/$1 blinds). One thought that crossed my mind is that there may be alot of fish on the $25 NL tables at party, since it is a heavily promoted site (then again, all of them are pretty heavily promoted now), and that is the lowest limit they can play at.

If I continue playing on paradise, should I move down to the $2 NL tables and grind it out? Or do you think $10 NL may be suited more for me?

How do the $25 NL tables at party and on other programs compare to the 2 and 10 dollar tables on Paradise. Is there really that much of a difference between $2 NL players on paradise and $10 NL players?

Actually I never took at look at that "Beginner" tab on party. Heh. Seems they have some micro tables after all.

[Werddown]

I find it quite hilarious that the top Sticky post in the Beginners circle almost identically resembles this post.

And I find it even more hilarious that I READ that post when I first started, and didn't even recall remembering that I had read it until someone in this thread suggested it to me.

I guess it was a true case of irony as I must have written the entire thing off as "That wont happen to me, I'm actually good!"

Boy do I feel owned and violated. I think I'm going to go smash some $2 NL to take out my frustration with myself.

Wait, I'm not supposed to play poker when I'm frustrated.

ARRRHGGG. This is so frustrating! :P

Yet intruiging at the same time

[KoRnholio]

So my bankroll is topping at about $570 now, and I'm already feeling like Sklansky with a hard-on.

LMAO

[CrunchyNuts]

I played the $2 tables on Paradise for a little over a month ($50->$130, as I recall offhand, fairly casual play amount). Was a sound grounding.

A nice comprimise between that and straight up .05/.10 would be the PStars penny tables, which have a max buyin of $5. More risk, more reward, same blinds - I still sit down there when I start to feel I'm letting the stakes I play go to my head. It's about as easy as the Paradise $2 as far as players go.

As far as Party $25 goes, yes it's easy - but you're going to get the same kind of beats you get at the penny tables, only they'll cost you >10x as much every time. You must be properly rolled and be playing a winning game. Thankfully, you can ensure both of those by grinding out penny tables elsewhere first.

[pgil]

I can offer a bit of beginner advice for playing at the low limit ring tables. Do not let the play of others at the table influence your play. What I mean by this is dont watch someone call to the river with bottom pair, only to hit trips and get paid influence your game. Don't emulate what you see. Don't think to yourself, "well, I saw dumbass there call a huge preflop raise with 57 offsuit and win a huge pot, I guess any two cards WILL do." I did this, and had huge swings in my bankroll during my short foray into ring games, then moved to SnG's where I could watch those people double or triple up, only to pass those chips on to me in about 20 minutes

[a500lbgorilla]

So my bankroll is topping at about $570 now, and I'm already feeling like Sklansky with a hard-on.

If you can see the mistakes your making (Thinking that you want to play player who you can bluff out of pots, disreguarding sample size and variance, moving up when you're losing, etc etc) you could go far.

But it will take time.

-'rilla

[Golden_Hand]

Wow this is exactly what happened to me. Had a Bankroll of about $500, drop it all to about $5. The reason? i was playing 100NL, 50NL - basically cash games outside my "bankroll range" hoping to score big quick. But i learned the hard lesson it kinda doesn't work that easy. The more experienced players at this level were more aggressive and pushing me out, because i guess they sense weakness - and unless i had the nuts i would fold. Basically i was playing with scared money and lacked conviction.

I've grinded my $5 back up to about $420 - just playing low limits, which are within my bankroll range. So when i lose a buy in i don't blink an eye and just move on - this is very important. Before when i lost i could easily go on tilt because of the impact it had.

I know people have mentioned this before but Bankroll management is key .. and grinding lower limits building the bankroll will give you enough experience and ammo to move up.

[bencathers]

Wow this is exactly what happened to me. Had a Bankroll of about $500, drop it all to about $5. The reason? i was playing 100NL, 50NL - basically cash games outside my "bankroll range" hoping to score big quick. But i learned the hard lesson it kinda doesn't work that easy. The more experienced players at this level were more aggressive and pushing me out, because i guess they sense weakness - and unless i had the nuts i would fold. Basically i was playing with scared money and lacked conviction.

I've grinded my $5 back up to about $420 - just playing low limits, which are within my bankroll range. So when i lose a buy in i don't blink an eye and just move on - this is very important. Before when i lost i could easily go on tilt because of the impact it had.

I know people have mentioned this before but Bankroll management is key .. and grinding lower limits building the bankroll will give you enough experience and ammo to move up.

It's an amazing feeling to drop a buy-in when its within your bankroll after youhave been dropping buy-ins when they were out of your bankroll

.... and that's when poker starts to make sense all over again

[jmontis]

a winning player practicing good bankroll management should never go broke, but as the saying goes, no bankroll is big enough for a losing player.

[Checkways]

You just have to keep playing if you want to get better. No amount of advice will help you.

However, if you keep going broke that kinda makes it hard to keep playing.

So instead of depositing a hundred dollars here and fifty bucks there, pool together all the money you're willing to lose on poker. ALL OF IT!

Then tell yourself that if you lose this much money you will be forced to stop playing forever.

It might help you stay at the lower limits and play within your bankroll. You know what all of your problems are, you just need to become a better player. And you will if you keep playing.