High non-paired hole cards

[DrDrei]

I think most people would agree that AK is the best of the unpaired hole cards, with AQ being next, but how would you rank the other hands, and under what situations would you play them?

I'm thinking here AJ KQ AT KJ KT QJ QT JT would be how you'd rank them in terms of power in a ten-handed no limit ring game. Do you guys agree?

What situations would you play them in?

I'd open for a raise in late position with any of these, of course, and probably not call a raise with any of them, but what would you do in early position? Limp and hope for no raise? Dump them?

What about a situation where you have one or two or three calls in front of you, but no raises?

[finky]

At full ring I open raise from early position with the first 3 if suited and limp if off suit, I'd limp the rest if suited (exept K10, not enough going for it) playing as high SCs or dump otherwise. As for late position with callers playing AJ - KJ depends on the table, if players are limping AQ etc. from early position then i wont raise, maybe limp an look at the action. If I see players calling raises with A rag then I'll raise AT and AJ looking to isolate.

I prefer to play JTs and QJs as high suited connectors, I will raise or call raises from them because if I hit the straight then the board probably hit my opponents as well. Of course all of this will depend on my opponents and the standard of hands they limp / raise with.

[zenbitz]

Depends on the number of players. Heads-up, A2 is better than KQ.

[Lukie]

Depends on the number of players. Heads-up, A2 is better than KQ.

I disagree.

[zenbitz]

Depends on the number of players. Heads-up, A2 is better than KQ.

I disagree.

It's not debatable. HEADS UP, A2o (black) vs KQo (red) is a 57:43 favorite. A2s is a 60:40 over KQo.

[BankItDrew]

I agree with lukie.

I understand that mathematically A2 is better than KQ, but A2 is only banking on one of three cards to flop, KQ is banking on 6.

[Irisheyes]

Depends on the number of players. Heads-up, A2 is better than KQ.

I disagree.

It's not debatable. HEADS UP, A2o (black) vs KQo (red) is a 57:43 favorite. A2s is a 60:40 over KQo.

You're assuming both players are all-in preflop.

[BankItDrew]

^^
what he says

[DrDrei]

While I would agree that in an all-in situation preflop A2 is better than KQ heads up, I'm not really talking about that sort of situation here. I'm more interested in which you would feel more confident raising to limit the field with. I mean, if I had AT, I'd be afraid that if I raised to limit the field, the likely hands calling me would have an ace with a higher kicker, so even it ace came on the flop, I'd still be screwed. With KQ, if a king comes and no ace, I'd feel a bit more confident, even though there could be an Ace King our there, I suppose.

AT is dominated by AK, AQ and AJ
KQ is dominated by AK and AQ only

Course, raising either of them against a tight table would probably only get calls from people with AQ or better anyway, so either way, I think you're screwed if you get callers. Maybe they should be limped in the hopes that if someone has AK or AQ they'll raise you and you can get out, but otherwise someone might be tempted to limp with Ace small or KJ and lose some money to you when the flop comes up with an Ace or a King?

[zenbitz]

My original point is that the X in the AX you raise depends on Y, the number of people left to act. If Y = 1, then X=2.

As for all-in vs. not all-in... that doesn't change the odds, merely the difficulty of post flop play... I mean you are stilll winning with A2 on a 678 flop. You just might not KNOW you are winning... So I would say you are still a favorite A2 vs any non-ace hand non-pair even with a less than all-in raise preflop.

Pairing your 2 is only useful if the other guy hits 2 pair and you hit an ace on a non paired board.... Maybe 3% of the time... but hey, you are connected for a straight.

So, you are ahead vs. 2 unpaired cards on the flop 73% of the time (he misses 68% of the the time + 5% you hit an A, he hits a single pair ROUGHLY not counting either of you flopping draws or flopping 2P or better). You are only behind KQ or 67 or whatever if you always fold when you don't hit a pair of Aces or better on the flop.

Heads up - ALL IN OR NOT - A-high is good on the river ~25% of the time.

A2o is even a slight favorite 3-way against KQo and JTo (eat eachother's straights) ... but an underdog vs KQo and 67o!

A2o is almost exactly a coinflip against 67s (I think the best non-pair/non-ace), and 55:45 fav over 67o (same as vs. random hand)


T

[Lukie]

My original point is that the X in the AX you raise depends on Y, the number of people left to act. If Y = 1, then X=2.

???

I don't follow.

---

It is my opinion that high, unpaired, unsuited hands without an ace like KQo and KJo are the most overrated hands by beginning NLHE ring players. A2o is complete trash though. What are you hoping to hit?

First, I understand that all-in preflop, cards flipped up, A2 is a favorite over KQ. That's not really poker though. 22 is an all-in favorite against AKs. Is 22 a better hand then AKs? I'm also not sure if you are talking about heads-up play or just a full-ring game that gets heads up to the flop. In either case, what I'm about to say still applies.

Let's talk domination, a very key concept in NLHE.

KQ is dominated by AQ, AK, QQ, KK, AA.

A2 is dominated by 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, AT, AJ, AQ, AK-- although hands like A3 v A2 will end in a split if neither players pair their hole cards.


Let's talk about implied odds, another very key concept in NLHE. What exactly are you looking to hit if you are holding A2? If you hit your ace, you are paying off a stronger ace (or better), and winning a trivial pot when you are best. KQ actually looks decent on a Kxx or Qxx board. Let's say you hit your A2x flop and a lot of money goes in. Then the turn or river pairs a card (not the ace or duece), your pair of dueces disappears, and you are behind any ace with a better, and split if you share a higher kicker on the board.

I dunno.. I didn't mean for this post to be so long. I understand A2 is a favorite over KQ preflop, but that doesn't make it a higher-quality hand, by any stretch of the imagination.

[DrDrei]

So, as far as domination goes:

AK dominated by AA, KK
AQ dominated by AA, KK, QQ, AK
AJ dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ
AT dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ
KQ dominated by AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ
KJ domintaded by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AJ, KQ
KT dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AT, KQ, KJ
QJ dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ
QT dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AQ, AT, KQ, KT, QJ
JT dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT


So in terms of strenght, it would go: AK, AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ, AT, QJ, KT, QT, JT if we were rating them in terms of how many other hands dominated them. So by that token, KQ is actually better than AJ.. and AT is about as good as QJ.

Of course, if we were to rate them in terms of how many hands they were an underdog to heads up, you'd probably get quite a different order.

So what's more important? How many hands dominate it, or how many hands do better than it heads up?

And more importantly, what situation are you looking for when you play something like AJ or KQ at a full table? If you're raising with them after a couple of callers, why are you doing so? Isn't it just the case that pretty much anyone who will call the raise preflop has you beat? Aren't you better off limping in the hope that you get two pair or better, or someone with a hand that dominates you raises it and you can get out of the pot, or someone with a hand that you dominate decides to limp and then pays you off when he flops top pair with a worse kicker?

[salsa4ever]

My original point is that the X in the AX you raise depends on Y, the number of people left to act. If Y = 1, then X=2.

As for all-in vs. not all-in... that doesn't change the odds, merely the difficulty of post flop play... I mean you are stilll winning with A2 on a 678 flop. You just might not KNOW you are winning... So I would say you are still a favorite A2 vs any non-ace hand non-pair even with a less than all-in raise preflop.

Pairing your 2 is only useful if the other guy hits 2 pair and you hit an ace on a non paired board.... Maybe 3% of the time... but hey, you are connected for a straight.

So, you are ahead vs. 2 unpaired cards on the flop 73% of the time (he misses 68% of the the time + 5% you hit an A, he hits a single pair ROUGHLY not counting either of you flopping draws or flopping 2P or better). You are only behind KQ or 67 or whatever if you always fold when you don't hit a pair of Aces or better on the flop.

Heads up - ALL IN OR NOT - A-high is good on the river ~25% of the time.

A2o is even a slight favorite 3-way against KQo and JTo (eat eachother's straights) ... but an underdog vs KQo and 67o!

A2o is almost exactly a coinflip against 67s (I think the best non-pair/non-ace), and 55:45 fav over 67o (same as vs. random hand)


T

if u get A2 ten times and I get KQ ten times in random positions and we're HU with a 4 BB PFR I'm very confident i can book a +ve result with KQ.

With A2 you'll win small pots if KQ doesn't hit. Are you going to call with A-high to assume your hand is good? You don't know that you're not up against AJ, or someone paired. Will u call Q52? or Q84? Or K99? or J73? or 987?

[Krieg1984]

Playability of hands is the key. Any two monkeys can get it all in before the flop and see who has the "slight edge". But then again, I'd rather not flip coins and roll dice if I don't have to.

Although hands like K5o, Q7, A2 etc are "mathematical favorites" over JT, I'd rather play the JT, everytime, especially during a heads-up match.