200NL move...discuss

[journey075]

i have AKo in the SB and MP2 raises to 7BB. i know that he is capable of doing this with hands i have dominated but i also know that hes a TAgg and will continue on any flop.

anyway, there were no callers to his raise and i folded.


i figured that im only hitting a flop 30% of the time, so 70% of the time im conceding the pot to him. i really dont like raising because even if he simply calls, hes going to bet any flop i check to him. if i hit an A/K i dont get any value out of it if he holds QQ or less and he certainly gets implied odds on any high set if i hit my pair since i cannot see his actions first. also, by calling 7bb in the sb i tell him that my hand is very strong and i probably wont get much value out of any bets with an A on the board (assuming he has AQ or worse).


anyway, super weak or well thought out?

[koolmoe]

What are the stack sizes?

How much does this guy usually raise preflop?

What hands would you definitely play in this scenario?

[journey075]

What are the stack sizes?

How much does this guy usually raise preflop?

What hands would you definitely play in this scenario?

i have a ~180bb stack he has a 300+bb stack.

he usually raises 5-8BBs, i know his hand is premium seeing that he bet OOP and doesnt showdown weak.

id definitely play all pocket pairs and any big suited ace.

[koolmoe]

I think folding gives up a lot of value, but it mostly depends on how well you play heads up.

Do you know how to defend against continuation bets?

[journey075]

I think folding gives up a lot of value, but it mostly depends on how well you play heads up.

Do you know how to defend against continuation bets?

well, i figured my best postflop move was to check raise him regardless of the flop. if he missed then he'd fold and if i hit i could squeeze an extra bet out of him. if i hit really hard i could probably slowplay.


i feel a good discussion coming on though, tell me how to defend against cont bets.




PS i never knew you played NL so yay.

[Checkways]

i have AKo in the SB and MP2 raises to 7BB. i know that he is capable of doing this with hands i have dominated but i also know that hes a TAgg and will continue on any flop.

anyway, there were no callers to his raise and i folded.


i figured that im only hitting a flop 30% of the time, so 70% of the time im conceding the pot to him. i really dont like raising because even if he simply calls, hes going to bet any flop i check to him. if i hit an A/K i dont get any value out of it if he holds QQ or less and he certainly gets implied odds on any high set if i hit my pair since i cannot see his actions first. also, by calling 7bb in the sb i tell him that my hand is very strong and i probably wont get much value out of any bets with an A on the board (assuming he has AQ or worse).


anyway, super weak or well thought out?

I hate this situation.

Given the size of your stack, could a reraise be in order here? 7BB is quite a bit, and could mean TT or JJ. If you've seen the guy raise that much before with AA or KK then you should probably just fold.

But since he's a tight player, a reraise could avoid any tricky flop situations. Bettng 21-25 BB preflop is going to be less costly than the check raise you'll do on the flop which will probably have to be somewhere in the neighorhood of 30-45BB.

If you don't reraise a lot preflop, a really tight player may even drop their QQ.

I know if a tight player comes over the top on me preflop I will let go of my TT, JJ, AK, AQ, etc. You could probably do the same to him.

Calling seems like you'll be getting the worst of it. Folding is a safe play of course.

[storm75m]

{From another thread}

unimproved overcards? psh you give me too much credit. try doing it with T8o on an AKxxx board -- and getting a fold. its all about playing the opponent. ...

haha, i tend to make more moves like this since ive dramatically increased my bb/100 with lagg play. i tend to make wayyy more money without a hand than anything else.

but what do i know.

LoL, Now I understand why... You're folding all the good hands! just giving ya a hard time...

NEWay, I only fold there unless you know for SURE he's playing a pocket pair... What I am I talking about, I don't think I fold that at all, if you have 180BB then I see a flop. I would actually reraise. If you reraise, you'll be the one making the continuation bet, he'll likely check the flop to you. (unless you have a read otherwise)

[koolmoe]

well, i figured my best postflop move was to check raise him regardless of the flop. if he missed then he'd fold and if i hit i could squeeze an extra bet out of him. if i hit really hard i could probably slowplay.

That's a good option. Another option is to just call. Not a good option if he'll almost always fire again on the turn. If you are willing to see a showdown unimproved on a raggy board, calling can be better than raising.

One of the good things about defending against continuation bets is that your opponents will make them less often.

BTW, there's a small section in HOH2 about defending against continuation bets.

i feel a good discussion coming on though, tell me how to defend against cont bets.

I don't really have any great answers besides what I posted above, but I think a reluctance to defend against continuation bets is pretty much the reason you laid down a premium hand preflop. A big part of NL is playing off your opponents' fear. Maybe this is something for you to work on. Just a thought.

PS i never knew you played NL so yay.

I do play in spots. I'm just nowhere near as experienced at NL as I am at limit. Take my advice with a huge grain of salt. Mostly I just like to read my own writing.

[journey075]

{From another thread}

unimproved overcards? psh you give me too much credit. try doing it with T8o on an AKxxx board -- and getting a fold. its all about playing the opponent. ...

haha, i tend to make more moves like this since ive dramatically increased my bb/100 with lagg play. i tend to make wayyy more money without a hand than anything else.

but what do i know.

LoL, Now I understand why... You're folding all the good hands! just giving ya a hard time...

NEWay, I only fold there unless you know for SURE he's playing a pocket pair... What I am I talking about, I don't think I fold that at all, if you have 180BB then I see a flop. I would actually reraise. If you reraise, you'll be the one making the continuation bet, he'll likely check the flop to you. (unless you have a read otherwise)

what can i say, i like position .


i hate raising in the blinds without a big hand and to reraise in the blinds i think i need better than AKo.


i act first on the flop and i hate check/folding down the turn if i miss the flop since it makes my play so apparent.

[journey075]

i think the general consensus is to raise and defend the hand...but my thinking is that i can get away from this hand extremely cheap and i dont want to force a huge HU confrontation. plus, you guys are forgetting the biggest advantage in HU is position.


then again i might be wayyyyy too weak in EP. i make up for a lot of my EP weakness with lots of LP aggro. i was thinking of this hand simply with math. i dont have implied odds for a pair, i dont have pot odds (30% to hit a pair) HU and i dont have position. if i had ONE of the three id be all over it.


anyway, im still willing to change if need be.

Now, ask yourself, if that player had AQ, would he make this move? If the answer is "Yes" you know to reraise.

[underminedsk]

So exactly how do you guys defend against continuations? Is the answer to reraise PF? But then what about the flop when you are oop? It seems like learning to defend against continuation betting would be a very valuable skill.

[Sed]

To defend, raise his continuation bet when the board texture tells you to, or you have a good draw... easy enough.

- sed

[Checkways]

So exactly how do you guys defend against continuations? Is the answer to reraise PF? But then what about the flop when you are oop? It seems like learning to defend against continuation betting would be a very valuable skill.

In this situation, since you're out of position and the guy is tight, just bet into him. Don't even let him do a continuation bet. It's cheaper than a check raise and a lot of times the guy will just mumble and fold.

It's suspicious sure, but sometimes people just don't want to risk their chips when they've missed their hand. They'll just let you take it. That's just one way of doing it of course.

[a500lbgorilla]

You have 3 options.

Call, play the flop weak and fold.

Fold the SB and not even bother with OOP shenanigans.

Raise and try to rep AA.

I like fold, it's so quick and painless.

-'rilla

[Rondavu]

Reraise preflop, see how he reacts. Now you're in control if you have the best hand and you both miss.

[ensign_lee]

fold. 2 off the blinds, in EP, he raises 7x BB. More often than not, you're dominated.

[Drewbie]

well, i figured my best postflop move was to check raise him regardless of the flop

In my newbie opinion,
this is sound advice against a TAGG player when you have a decent hand.

If he re-raises you have a tough decision to make, but if he missed he will in all likelyhood fold and if he calls, you see another card and go from there.