Gap Concept

[RiverMonkey]

Does some one want to take a stab at defining and explaining the 'Gap Concept'? Maybe use some concrete examples ..... If it's in another post or set of posts, please point me there.

Which Sklansky book is this discussed in? (It could very easily be in one of his books that I own, but on a page or set of pages I've skipped and plan on going back to .......... some day )

Thanks!

[a500lbgorilla]

Rippy can raise with 7 4 from middle position and it would be difficult for you to call with K J

It's the difference in the hands you can raise with an the hands you can call with in a tourny where survival is important.

That's why you can blind steal so well. It's too difficult for them to call.

-'rilla

[Mony B]

from the information i have read the gap concept basically states that you can call a raise with a lot less hands then you can raise with. For instance, say im in a tourny at the final table out of 100 people and im delt 74o and im in the dealer position. There is just the two blinds and me, all other fold, so i try to take down the blinds and raise say 5xBB, and the take down works great. Now lets say same situation and the player two to the right of me raises 5xBB and i check my hole cards and i have that same 74o, I cannot make that call cause it is not a very good hand, and the player two to the right of me is showing strenght and since I do not want to play against someone who has a better hand then me cause my hand is weak, I must fold. You can raise with a lot more then you can call with. David Skalnsky has a good chapter in his book "Theory of Poker" that is on the gap concept.

[Zangief]

He also explains the Gap Concept in "Tournament Poker for Advanced Players".

{This post has been removed}

[dalecooper]

Ive read 3 of his books now and quite frankly I'd smoke that fool....ring or tourney

I would very much enjoy witnessing that matchup.

This brings to mind another recent, similar thread on Sklansky... people make the mistake of thinking that he plays the exact same way under all conditions. In fact most of his books are geared toward specific kinds of games with pro players, or players who operate in the pro mold (tight/aggressive). I'm pretty sure that if he got into a heads-up situation with you, Rippy, he would not be sitting there folding Ax and KJ while you rammed all your chips in the pot every other hand.

Sklansky and Dan Harrington are two guys who appear to play more by odds and formulae than by instinct, but they both do pretty well for themselves, I'd say... they must have SOME instinct in there somewhere. Don't be so quick to write them off.

[Pyroxene]

And, to build off what others have said:

Sklansky says 'the Gap' is the difference between the hands that you would have opened with in your position vs. the hands that you will call a raise with in your position. He explicitly states that 'the Gap' varies due to a lot of factors with a huge one being how loose the opening raiser is. I do not have his book infront of me right now, so I am going to take a shot at paraphrasing one of his statements:

If the raiser is a tight player, 'the Gap' would be very large; if the raiser is a very loose player, there may be no gap at all.

He is really addressing the situation that 'rila is talking about. The Gap concept should not be used as an excuse for not going in with a good (non-premium) hand from late position if the opening raiser is a very loose player.

[dalecooper]

Exactly. People a lot of times think Sklansky is a robot - which he kind of is, but he's a robot that makes adjustments, too. The gap concept applies mostly to playing against players known to be tight/aggressive. If you know they only raise or re-raise with premium hands, there's no point getting into pots with them where you are at a heavy disadvantage (like KQ vs. AK, AA, or KK). That is, assuming you respect them as a player and you're not going to try to bluff them out.

[Pyroxene]

Well, I got home and wanted to get you a reference for the Gap concept.

Sklansky talks about it in 'Tournament Poker for Advanced Players' starting on page 27. Here are a couple of quotes that explain it.

There is a very important general principle understood by all good poker players. That is, you need a better hand to play against someone who has already opened the betting than you would need to open yourself. For instance, in jacks-or-better draw poker you might open with a pair of queens, but you would never call someone who has already opened when you hold those same two queens. In limit hold'em, you would most certainly raise in middle position with KQ especially if no one else was in yet but you would rarely play against an early position raiser with the same hand.

The difference between the hand you need to call an opener with, and that with which you would open yourself, I call the "Gap." How wide that Gap is depends on how tight your opponents play. If your opponents are quite loose, there may be no gap at all.

[Admerylous]

Looks like 22 has it out for you, rippy.

[Mony B]

WOW, this post got way out of hand. 22, I dont mean to be rude but I wouldnt suggest going around calling rip a idiot, and please be my guest to explain to me whats the difference between online pro and casino pro. In a casino you can look at the player and get reads and you have to physically put your chips in the middle. Besides that there isnt a huge difference, your still playing the same game and making the same money. Rip is known as one of the best tourny players on this site, and all a round a great player, just cause sklansky wrote some books you happen to learn your play from doesnt mean that Rip couldnt take him down. I watched Jery Drohobal take down Martin deKniff in the WSOP for a title and Martin had just a couple months previous won the WPT Championship. Im not saying this situation is the same as the one we are talking about, but to flat out put money on Sklansky over Rip is one of the dumbest bets I have ever heard. Nor am I saying one player is better then the other, I belive they could probably learn something from eachother, being as how the only way to get better is to be put in more situations. It would be a great match up, I would love to see that, but heres my point, why would either of them waste their time? It doesnt matter to either Rip, or David who is the better player cause they know they can make more money off of people who are not as great of players as they are. If someone starts to say they are better then someone else then it totally voids the reason why people play poker (money) and it becomes a ego thing and at that point you shouldnt be playing card anyways cause you are playing with way to much emotion, and as we all know emotions in the poker world = bad!!!

[Tottenham]

Wow.

Hadnt seen that winners thread before. Good work to all of you guys! Some really skilled players here.

[Wet_DreaMer]

Anyway, this guy has been banned.

Good decision imo, he was hardly constructive to the forum; i think everyone knows ripptyde woulda killed him heads up.

I would question the original comments about sklansky though.

1. Would he actually write about his instincts in a book read around the world? To completely lose the edge he still has?
2. Even if he didnt want to share his all around game, how exactly do you write things like that in a communicable manner? It comes 99% from pure experience.

Sklansky writes the formulas because that is what others can read and learn. It is the basic fundamentals that can be taught and understood and can develop a players game in general.

He explains many theories and concepts well enough to be sold.

[Greedo017]

i don't think any good poker player can be successful just using odds and numbers. If you didn't have at least some ability to sense weakness in vital situations you'd be as broke as OJ.

harrington (and i'm sure slansky too) isn't successful just because he plays tight and knows his numbers. there's a million players out there who only play premium hands. they're at home, they didn't qualify.

that's not to say rippy vs. a slansky or harrington wouldn't be a good matchup. but its not like they've never come across an aggressive player before.

[loanhorse]

I was reading through old threads and this one really made me sick. DavSimon posted on FTR behavior expectations and again the line has been breached. This post was about David Skalanksy gap concept and some how the topic gets switched to "Rippy vs. Sklansky".

sorry but my opinion is Sklansky is a tool

Rippy I have talked to you on IRC a few times and consider you to be a great player. I say this with all do respect, but you need to lighten up. The Hellmuth post, now this, its like your looking for trouble. These forums do not need this kind of negative publicity. This thread is now crapped thanks to you and this idiot duece duece OE.


Anyways, with that said here is mostly what the gap concept is about giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt with there position. Mostly applys for conservative players.
At a Tableof nine/ten players.

Early- Raise with high pair AA,KK,QQ and JJ,10,10. AKs AKo AQs.

Middle- All above plus nines, eights, AQ,AJ,KQ suited or unsuited.

Late- Raise all above hands and sevens, acex, high suited connetors.

Basically saying there are different requirements for opening and entering a pot based on your position. If you decide to enter a pot that someone else has opened you want a better hand than you would require to open yourself from his position.

Excerpts From Tournament poker for advanced players and hoh.

[a500lbgorilla]

{Cleaned}

-'rilla