TpMk: out of control pot

[Checkways]

I reluctantly ask another question here since I've been getting quite a bit of ridicule for them. So if you think it's a dumb question, just move on.

This is always a tough situation for me. I'd like to know what you do.

Okay, so let's say you raise on the button with KJ in a $100 game.

The table is pretty loose and unfortunately you get four callers. Pot is $75.

Flop is K83 rainbow. Everyone checks to you. You bet $40 expecting to take it down there. You get two callers. Pot is $155.

Turn is a 9d creating a backdoor flush draw. You only have about $80 left. It checks to you.

Question 1. Check or not check? Give a free card? Get trapped? Table is kind of loose, but they're not dummies. The other two guys in this hand cover you. You have seen them flip over bad kickers, but you've also seen them slow play sets.

Question 2. Let's say you check. River card is a blank. Pot is still $155. Someone bets into you for $60. Do you call? One person to act after you.

[evman150]

Is raising to 15BB before the flop with a shitty hand a good idea? Is it really worth betting so much to take down that three or four bucks sitting in the middle?

By far the worst play of the hand.

And I doubt you'll ever get four callers all calling 15BB preflop. Especially at NL100.

All that aside, you have to bet the turn. You have to bet it all as well, cause if you only bet 20 or something you're basically giving them a free card and if you bet 60 you're going to have to put the last 20 in the pot on the river due to pot odds anyway. So might as well just put it all in and hope for the best.

Free cards are death.

As for Q2, I would call into such a big pot. You're getting 3.5:1 on your call and after showing weakness on the turn by checking behind, the guy just might be bluffing. With 3.5:1 odds it's an easy call.

[Checkways]

Is raising to 15BB before the flop with a shitty hand a good idea? Is it really worth betting so much to take down that three or four bucks sitting in the middle?

By far the worst play of the hand.

And I doubt you'll ever get four callers all calling 15BB preflop. Especially at NL100.

All that aside, you have to bet the turn. You have to bet it all as well, cause if you only bet 20 or something you're basically giving them a free card and if you bet 60 you're going to have to put the last 20 in the pot on the river due to pot odds anyway. So might as well just put it all in and hope for the best.

Free cards are death.

As for Q2, I would call into such a big pot. You're getting 3.5:1 on your call and after showing weakness on the turn by checking behind, the guy just might be bluffing. With 3.5:1 odds it's an easy call.

Thnx for the response, Ev. The raise is 4xBB not 15xBB (With a $3 big blind that's a $12 raise). The total pot size after four callers is $75. And yes, this happens all the time where I play.

I agree that free cards are death, but there's no draw there other than the backdoor flush. If they're calling me with a lower kicker, odds are that they won't hit their second pair, right?

The thing that's weird to me is that why would the guy call the $40 in the first place? So what kind of holding could he have to bluff with on the river?

I'm not disagreeing with you at all though. I just have more questions.

[journey075]

whats the blind structure in a 100NL game that has a $3 BB?


anyway, raising to ~$18 (75 pot divided by 4) preflop is a bit messy even on the button considering that its almost a fifth of your stack.

anyway, limp preflop. it doesnt look like you can isolate at tables this loose/passive. hit a monster and get paid...zero reason to make moves. plus it helps enormously w/ pot control.


assuming you raise preflop...

i bet the flop (good)

and i probably push the turn. you dont have many options here and with the size of the pot i dont think you can get away if somebody puts you AI. you might as well just push and hope for some fold equity.


also, look into pot control. raising so much preflop means that any subsequent bet has to be enormous. and since you were never playing deep stack poker (33bb stacks???) you essentially pot commit yourself preflop if you hit any part of the flop.


very bad move considering stack sizes. i agree w/ the above poster that your biggest mistake was made preflop. i never really liked making moves on a 50bb stack let alone 33...

[Checkways]

whats the blind structure in a 100NL game that has a $3 BB?


anyway, raising to ~$18 (75 pot divided by 4) preflop is a bit messy even on the button considering that its almost a fifth of your stack.

anyway, limp preflop. it doesnt look like you can isolate at tables this loose/passive. hit a monster and get paid...zero reason to make moves. plus it helps enormously w/ pot control.


assuming you raise preflop...

i bet the flop (good)

and i probably push the turn. you dont have many options here and with the size of the pot i dont think you can get away if somebody puts you AI. you might as well just push and hope for some fold equity.


also, look into pot control. raising so much preflop means that any subsequent bet has to be enormous. and since you were never playing deep stack poker (33bb stacks???) you essentially pot commit yourself preflop if you hit any part of the flop.


very bad move considering stack sizes. i agree w/ the above poster that your biggest mistake was made preflop. i never really liked making moves on a 50bb stack let alone 33...

It's 2/3 blinds at Commerce where I play. The starting stacks are quite low. The average raise is $15 total which is what I raised in my scenario (5 people times 15 is $75). I have found that a raise to $10 will bring in the blinds and whatever limpers already came in. It rarely lowers the field by much.

So in this scenario I have 45BB preflop ($135). After committing 18BB after the flop, I should go all in for the remaining 27BB on the turn? At what point am I committed to this hand? It has a lot to do with the size of the pot too of course, right?

I disagree a little about not raising 4BB here. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

When I was playing super tight in this 2/3 NL100 game, I would sit around and watch my stack dwindle from blinds. Occassionally I'd limp in with a hand like KJ. I'd miss the flop and fold. When I finally do get a hand, I double up. Unfortunately I'd only have 40 bucks by that point. I'm less than back where I started, waiting for the next time I can double up my short stack.

So I started raising more and taking down more pots uncontested. I'd build a stack large enough to make more moves. This has been the most successful style for me, but I've only been doing this for like 5 weeks. In your opinion, am I making a mistake by raising more preflop with mediocre hands and a 33BB stack? Should I just wait until I get a premium hand? It seems like those guys don't get paid off. I know I don't pay off those guys.

[journey075]

start playing online. it doesnt even seem worth it with 33bb stacks.


anyway, an approach i like in this game is to essentially camp for hands and keep refilling your stack whenever it drops below say 28bbs. this is because when you hit youre not going to double up...but like this scenario, triple or quad up - making the camp worthwhile.



i still think this structure is absolute garbage and you should stop playing though.

even 50BB is too little because you're going to go all in too often and there is not enough room for strategy
the best poker is at 100BB stacks

[a500lbgorilla]

Don't raise preflop at a loose table with KJo.

I'm torn between check/calling and pushing depending on how loose the ops are currently in the hand.

-'rilla

[Checkways]

Don't raise preflop at a loose table with KJo.

I'm torn between check/calling and pushing depending on how loose the ops are currently in the hand.

-'rilla

So, the tighter the player the more apt you would be to check? Because they're trapping you?

Or the tighter the player the more apt you would be to push because they'll fold?

[a500lbgorilla]

Don't raise preflop at a loose table with KJo.

I'm torn between check/calling and pushing depending on how loose the ops are currently in the hand.

-'rilla

So, the tighter the player the more apt you would be to check? Because they're trapping you?

Or the tighter the player the more apt you would be to push because they'll fold?

Looser ops usually mean they'll play weaker kings. I meant check becuase they're probably trapping.

-'rilla