Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

1) Like I say, was probably tilting a bit.

4) I think it was 4/4 donk bets. Not huge but enough to indicate he's likely doing it all the time. I dont think we can only play fit/fold v's a guy doing this this much though, we have an overcard and presumably a fair amount of fold equity.

5) Not sure why you'd say that. His stack size is only slightly bigger than the pot, which is why I'm not going to fold to him. 240 total hands, 70% of about 40 hands donked.

Havnt played at all today. Been feeling under the weather for a while now, and it seems to be culminating. Really crap feeling today.

Been trying to think some things through about how I'm playing. I'm down 4.5 buyins for the month so far (over $4k hands). Some I've posted about as tilt related, some just variance. I spoke earlier about having trouble making judgement calls sometimes without being results oriented. Well thats where I stand now. How much of this is playing bad, and how much comes down to the 2 bad tilty sessions and running bad? Do I need to stop here and really work through some stuff, or should I just keep trying to play good poker and see how I go over the next week or two? Has the fact I havnt been feeling great, and have stopped going to the gym as a result affected my state of mind and therefore my game?

If I need to do something, what? Is it time to think about coaching? Should I drop back and maybe play HU at a lower stake for a while to work on ranges?

I think as a start, I stopped studying as much as I was a month or two back. I like to think I'm playing the same, but maybe I'm not? I need to get back into actually taking notes as I watch videos, and also on hands I post and get comments on. Maybe if I focus on that for a while, really focus back on my table selection, and see how things go for a bit?

Oh dear... Swine flu?

All of the options you listed are good, imo. I would start with the renewed focus on studying (I need this too!!) and keep playing when you feel better. Keep an open mind about coaching. I'm considering the coaching angle, too. I think it makes a ton of sense. Vids are good, but somewhat inefficient imo as they often wander through a wasteland of hands and info to get to the 2 or 3 key points that make them worthwhile. I don't have a ton of time, so studying and reviewing my game seems to pay off faster in terms of improving. I think coaching would also be efficient.

As always, good luck with the grind and life and feel better soon.

Man, now I feel mentally sick. Played last night. Felt really good started well, then just hit a bad run.

Two Pair v's Flopped flush against a reg I thought capable of semibluffing.
Two Pair v's Rivered Straight v's one of the biggest fish I've seen.
NFD on 744 board v's 80/4 with 80% donk bet, he had KK after limp/calling PF.
AA v's bottom pair turns trips.
Not a single draw hitting.
Finished the night with Set under Set.

Down 5 buyins. A couple of them I could have gotten away cheaper on, but overall I really only put about $80 down to bad calls, and I dont think any of it to tilt.

So even though I think I got through the session without tilting, I'm now down 10 buyins ($1k!!) for the month and feeling like I'm in a bad place. I think for a start I'm going to not play again until I'm well. Just incase my heads not working as well as I'd hope. I'll do a bunch of study/etc in the meantime. Rolls down to $3750 now, I think when I start up again I'll play 50nl till I win the 5 buyins to get back to $4k and move back up. Look at some other options too I guess.

I think that's a good idea. You can still make some money at 50NL.
The fear of a 4-figure downswing is what kept me from 100NL until I had like 60BI. Luckily I went on a massive heater, but I know it's going to come at some point and I'll be like 'omg, did I just loose 1k gambling?'

losing 5bi's in a session def. sucks, but if its truely coolers/beats like you described just grind through it. Play as you feel comfortable with your BR, but unless you're playing bad i would just grind it out.

yup, add me to the "wtf I just lost 1k gambling?" club. Last week, it's why I moved back down to 50NL. IMO, move down for a while as planned. I just wish I had done it sooner, before the tilt set in, so instead of only now getting back to a 3k BR, I'd be alot close to getting back to a 4k Br and moving back up.

Moving down during bad times is so underrated.

Originally Posted by speedcake

yup, add me to the "wtf I just lost 1k gambling?" club. Last week, it's why I moved back down to 50NL. IMO, move down for a while as planned. I just wish I had done it sooner, before the tilt set in, so instead of only now getting back to a 3k BR, I'd be alot close to getting back to a 4k Br and moving back up.

Moving down during bad times is so underrated.

I did move down to 50nl still rolled for 100nl, and it helped. I was crushing 50nl within 1k hands, just reading the regs and the game extremely well after my experience at 100nl. It's kind of fun to return to the lower limits after you've gotten some experience higher. I regained tons of confidence, built a bit of roll, and cemented a lot of learning points in my mind. Played about 7k hands at 50nl earlier this month, then moved back up.

And I've done the wft -1k twice in my poker life. Both this year.

Originally Posted by bode

losing 5bi's in a session def. sucks, but if its truely coolers/beats like you described just grind through it. Play as you feel comfortable with your BR, but unless you're playing bad i would just grind it out.

Thanks guys. I agree Bode, the problem is just now I dont trust myself to make the judgement call on whether it was playing bad or coolers/beats. I posted 5 of my biggest losers in the SH forum from the session, general consensus seems to be 2 out of the 5 were bad and one of those was a $15 cbet in a 3-bet pot where I should have just c/f, so I guess thats not too bad.

I've had some useful feedback on the vid I posted in the BC by good players, and no real questions or comments from the people I posted it for. Not sure if that means they just accept what I said, if it was so basic they didnt have any questions about spots, or quite what.

Hmm, just broke both my plan to not play till I was well, and my BRM play all in one shot. Fired up Everest and all the 100nl tables were Reg infested so checked 200nl and found a couple really juicy tables. Played 60 hands and won $250 which put me back at $4k. So...BAD BEN BAD!! Whee!

Been thinking through some options. I think I'll move half my roll onto Party Poker after reading this thread and chatting to Jyms: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...er-t85925.html. I also think I might put a couple hundred back onto Stars. I miss being able to bum around in cheap MTTs when I'm bored, and their 180man sngs get going fairly regularly. Would consider FT, but not sure if they're as good for that kind of thing?

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I think I'll move half my roll onto Party Poker

see you at 50nl 6-max while you get used to the software Tell me if i'm LAG spewing too much.. I got deep with a 90-40 who left with a 1000bb stack yesterday (one russian down $400! I left the table up 2 buyins, should have been a lot more)

I'm thinking of making a video of party 50nl 6-max - i look forward to saying "that was bjsAust from FTR. He is likely leaving the table cos he hates me always sitting to his left. That's great for me, cos it improves the fish ratio."

also, I watched half your vid, I'll send comments your way once I've watched the other half

as for -$1k.. I've down -$2k a couple of times and both times i should have moved down after the first $600, but didn't

I have a note on a couple people 'just leave if he has position', so your job is to get that note!!

I have a note for Daven that says "will barrel 3's in awkward spots and spike set on river, so leave table if he has his luckbox working." I've been tempted to try out 200nl for a few dozen hands, but so far I've resisted the temptation. NH, tho.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I have a note on a couple people 'just leave if he has position', so your job is to get that note!!

I'll give you a note.

Too aggressive. Open limp out of position to exploit him. If he is betting 75% pot over multiple streets, then it's probably air. Spends way too much time trying to get in HU pots with fish. Iso-range far too wide. PF 4-bets are more often bluffs than hands cos he hates the thought of an aggro type taking advantage of him. IOPQ's too often (=4&5-bets in silly spots). Plays too wide a range from EP.

that should be worth a couple of buyins

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I have a note on a couple people 'just leave if he has position', so your job is to get that note!!

I'll give you a note.

Too aggressive. Open limp out of position to exploit him. If he is betting 75% pot over multiple streets, then it's probably air. Spends way too much time trying to get in HU pots with fish. Iso-range far too wide. PF 4-bets are more often bluffs than hands cos he hates the thought of an aggro type taking advantage of him. IOPQ's too often (=4&5-bets in silly spots). Plays too wide a range from EP.

that should be worth a couple of buyins

Why are you publishing your notes on ME? Let these guys work to get that info!!

Bleh. So I withdrew $2,000 into Neteller from Everest yesterday, and it had cleared this morning. Went to deposit into Party and got an error that there was a $500 limit for a Neteller deposit (even though it says on the deposit options page that the limit is $10,000), so I just deposit $500, then go back in and deposit $1500 in a second one, but I forgot the second time around to change the currency to USD, so it deposited AU$1,500 which came out at USD$1171.86, fair enough, I check my Neteller account for exactly how much is left, $249.20 so I deposit that, and now my Neteller account is completely empty. Those of you a bit quicker on maths will have picked up on the problem though. My actual balance on Party is $1921.06. I lost $80 due to conversion differences between Neteller and Party!! .

Not happy.

wow that sucks. In the June garfs thread you'll be listing '-$78.94 currency conversion' between RB and bonuses.

Played a little bit. Setup my HEM and just got a feel for things. Played 50nl (other than some 4nl setting up initial HEM layout). Some good things, some bad. I guess you get used to things. Negatives (let me know if theres ways around these):

- Cant filter table types. I'd prefer to only have 6max tables to choose from.
- Auto-post blinds posts OOP. Very frustrating this, I shouldnt need to sit out and manually time sitting back in to post my blind.
- Software still seemed slow


Something I'm a bit iffy on is the 'show folded cards' option. I like to know what I folded, but the cards dont look very different from when you dont fold, which I wonder if that could get confusing.

Good things:

- Auto-rebuy! Biggest gap on Everest IMO.

I dunno, I dont think I've ever started on a new site and liked it, but you get used to them. Won some money so thats a good start

welcome to my new world...

Originally Posted by bjsaust

- Cant filter table types. I'd prefer to only have 6max tables to choose from.
Click cash games - select seats = 6

- Auto-post blinds posts OOP. Very frustrating this, I shouldnt need to sit out and manually time sitting back in to post my blind.
when you first join a table, click 'wait for bb' when it comes up. Then auto post blind. If you sit out for whatever reason, uncheck auto-post-blind. You'll get used to it

- Software still seemed slow
dunno, it seemed fine during my first go at 10-tabling 6-max today

Something I'm a bit iffy on is the 'show folded cards' option. I like to know what I folded, why? for notes? or? otherwise fold and forget

I dunno, I dont think I've ever started on a new site and liked it, but you get used to them. Won some money so thats a good start yeah, but did you find me? I'm up $500 at 50nl the last 3 days, and that's running and playing kinda bad. It's a fishbowl dude!

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Bleh. So I withdrew $2,000 into Neteller from Everest yesterday, and it had cleared this morning. Went to deposit into Party and got an error that there was a $500 limit for a Neteller deposit (even though it says on the deposit options page that the limit is $10,000), so I just deposit $500, then go back in and deposit $1500 in a second one, but I forgot the second time around to change the currency to USD, so it deposited AU$1,500 which came out at USD$1171.86, fair enough, I check my Neteller account for exactly how much is left, $249.20 so I deposit that, and now my Neteller account is completely empty. Those of you a bit quicker on maths will have picked up on the problem though. My actual balance on Party is $1921.06. I lost $80 due to conversion differences between Neteller and Party!! .

Not happy.

Sorry you got screwed, but this might make you lol. I didn't get to the sentence in bold 'cuz I was so hung up thinkin' "wtf that doesn't add up right" and I reread the 2 sentences before like 3 times.

Originally Posted by daven

welcome to my new world...

i like your tin hat theory - hope Party opens to us in US

lol Robb.

Thanks Daven, I (obviously) cant remember seeing either of those options, so I'll look again next time I try. As for speed, may just be lag for me, or I could be wrong, just seemed like little delays with stuff.

For interests sake I like knowing that if I hadnt folded 94o I'd have flopped a boat!!! Just one of those silly games I play in my head that adds no value whatsoever.

Down a buyin at 50nl so far, but it looks promising. I think in an hours session I only closed 1 table for turning bad, its a nice change for players to leave and worse players take their place. I just got caught out by people pulling stupid bluffs early on, so became a bit of a station later.

First beat:

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($50.83)
BB ($22.09)
Hero (UTG) ($57.64)
MP ($30.09)
Button ($58.39)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets $2, MP raises $7, 3 folds, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($14.75) Q, K, A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $23.09 (All-In), Hero calls $23.09

Turn: ($60.93) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($60.93) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $60.93

Results:
Hero had A, Q (two pair, Aces and Queens).
MP had 2, 2 (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: MP won $58.93

Still, cant be unhappy about sitting at a table with that guy.

Man, still sick. Feel like my face wants to explode, nasty sinus pain. Couldnt get back to sleep when I woke at 5am due to the pain.

Know what sucks most about being sick? The stuff you can relax and 'enjoy' you dont feel in the mood for. I could be kicking back reading, or watching TV, or kicking back in my home theatre. I could be playing computer games! But no, none of that appeals to me. Eyes are sore, feel bleh. Cant think of a single thing I want to do except sleep and that hasnt been working so well. Its the weekend dammit, I should be able to do something fun!!

Got some cream left over from a dinner we had the other night, think I'm going to cook up some scones and treat myself to a Devonshire Tea this afternoon.

whats ur SN on party? i donk around there alot, from 25nl to 200nl.

I'll PM you. Keeping it secret from Daven for a few weeks so that we can compare any notes we have that we make in the meantime unawares.

Played some last night. Probably shouldnt have. Lost a buyin at 100nl, primarily due to a bad bluff. I think I convincingly portrayed the type of hand I wanted to, but on the other hand he had so little behind that I really shouldnt expect him to fold. I called down with JJ on a Q high flop, after the third barrel it was obvious he had a Q so turned my hand into a bluff by shoving (less than pot sized shove), but my fold equity was really low. Board (esp Flop) had no draws at all, so my range is heavily sets, and he did tank, but expecting him to fold was overly hopeful. Other than played ok I think.

Played a bit this morning. Dissappointing that not many tables running on what would be Sat night. I filter to only show 25% vpip and above tables so maybe its just a bit misleading. Won a buying at 50nl. Popping around, just looking for good tables atm. Thinking maybe I should stick at 50nl till I get my roll there to $2k. Give me a chance to get into the swing of things. Prior to getting sick I'd gone on a 10 buyin downswing, still not healthy yet, probably a good idea to stick to 50nl for a bit.

You shouldnt think you lost 100 bucks on the bluff.

Although your Fold Equity was low it was definitely not 0%. This type of thinking makes me feel much better about bad bluffs. If he tanked your Fold Equity was probably higher than 25%.

Yeah true, but it was still probably bad.

This one was a bit more interesting. Guy is 52/43 over small sample. 100% cbet, 100% turn cbet, 100% bet when checked to, you get the picture, he likes betting. Large PF raise is not unusual.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($69.06)
SB ($71.32)
MP ($43.75)
UTG ($11)
CO ($55.76)
Button ($25.03)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, Q
3 folds, Button calls $0.50, SB bets $2.75, Hero calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.50) 6, 3, 6 (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero calls $4

Turn: ($14.50) 4 (2 players)
SB bets $11, Hero raises $26, SB raises $53.32 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $66.50

Results:
SB didn't show
Outcome: SB won $101.82


Maybe should have made my raise a bit bigger, but it seemed like a spot where he folds a huge % of his range.

I've never seen you limp/call before - do you do that regularly? and what with?

And I guess I'm the fish because while I like bluff part, this is a semi-bluff, and I think we have enough equity to call the shove.

I didnt limp/fold, he isolated a limper and I called because I think he has a huge range there (limper folded).

Yeah, its a semi-bluff, but we need to call $36 into $102, we can only call that if we believe our overs are good, and given his response I'm guessing he has either a 6 or an overpair, so dont think I quite have the odds.

There's a lot of overpairs that we can beat with a K or Q. We have so much equity in this pot that we just can't raise with the intention of folding to a shove.

That shove here though? Sure theres 77-99, but does he shove those? Even TT might be iffy.

Thinking about it though, I'm really not sure what hands he calls with. If he only ever calls or shoves, then bet/fold seems really bad with the equity I have. In that case I should either bet larger and call, or just call and hope to hit on the river.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I didnt limp/fold, he isolated a limper and I called because I think he has a huge range there (limper folded).

My mistake - that's what I get for thinking pokerz at 1:30 AM. Sorry.

I still think I snap call this, 'cuz now that I'm seeing straight his limp/call range is probably wide, and like you said he likes to bet.

Raising turn with the intention of folding to a shove is not good here- as Dev said. We have too much equity to make it a pure bluff (which is it if you intend to fold).

His turn bet is small, and a call might be better. Also raising bigger might give you better fold equity + enough pot odds to call a shove.

Anyways I love having more Equity on the flop versus these kind of players. Implied odds are huge against maniacs and therefore we dont need to play very marginal holdings. We can still get a nice profit from playing more tight/passive.

Good Luck!

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I didnt limp/fold, he isolated a limper and I called because I think he has a huge range there (limper folded).

My mistake - that's what I get for thinking pokerz at 1:30 AM. Sorry.

I still think I snap call this, 'cuz now that I'm seeing straight his limp/call range is probably wide, and like you said he likes to bet.

He didnt limp/call either. You're missing a player

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I didnt limp/fold, he isolated a limper and I called because I think he has a huge range there (limper folded).

My mistake - that's what I get for thinking pokerz at 1:30 AM. Sorry.

I still think I snap call this, 'cuz now that I'm seeing straight his limp/call range is probably wide, and like you said he likes to bet.

He didnt limp/call either. You're missing a player

Wow. Can I just say I'm a total moran and be done with it?

Seriously, this is my life - what I call distracted poker. My two week honors camp started today, 13 days of 6 AM to 10 PM fun (yes, it is a blast). We get to climb and play on the ropes course, go rock climbing and rappelling, and (since it IS an honors) do some interesting academics. I teach game theory. But it's a ton of work, even though I enjoy it. If interested: North Georgia Summer Honors web site.

I won't be playing much 'cuz (as you can see from me jacking up your thread) my poker brain ain't worth sh!t right now. Hope you're feeling better, though.

Play an extra hand or two the next coupla weeks 'cuz I can't.

Feeling better than I was, but not yet well. Just got back from a short, slightly light gym session. First one for a couple weeks. Hoping it'll help me feel better rather than the opposite.

Played a couple sessions today. One break even, the other up 1.5 buyins. Was down over a buyin in the initial one early on, so fairly happy overall. Been chatting to Jyms a bit, he's started on Party also and is playing 50nl as well. Suggested a few adjustments that have worked well.

I'm not sure if others see this, but I tend to find different sites have different play styles. Kind of like, if you dont have a read, theres a default read that works fairly well for the site. Everest was very bluffy, iPoker contained a lot of floaters. On Party its mainly stations. It really seems to be all about value betting. Most of my bigger losses were bluffs. I've gotten used to being able to represent hands and get people to fold. Here thats just burning money so far. It feels a lot like going back to micro stakes. Very little bluffing, very little levelling, just make good TP type hands and win a lot of small/med pots. In those 3 buyins I won from from when I hit my bottom yesterday, I think only one was a big pot.

And....back down we go. 1.5 hr session, think I played well, was doing well in the small/med pots, looked good for a nice session. Then I had these two fun hands in close succession. Reminded me of conversation in Robbs thread about how aiEV only shows a small degree of luck:

hand 1

Taggy villain

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($56.26)
Button ($33.09)
BB ($51.41)
UTG ($97.36)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, Q
UTG bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.50) 7, J, 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.33, Hero raises $11, UTG calls $7.67

Turn: ($25.50) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $15, UTG calls $15

River: ($55.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $28.76 (All-In), UTG calls $28.76

Total pot: $113.02

Results:
Hero had K, Q (flush, King high).
UTG had A, J (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: UTG won $110.52


Hand 2

UTG is 71/14 (probably tighter PFR before this). [edit] Rechecked, this was a TINY sample size, probably close enough to be unknown with maybe a hint he's a station preflop.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($51.10)
UTG ($50.75)
Hero (Button) ($50)
MP ($52.33)
SB ($48.59)
CO ($33.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, A
2 folds, CO bets $1, Hero calls $1, SB raises $4.25, 1 fold, CO calls $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($14) 6, Q, 5 (3 players)
SB bets $5.50, CO calls $5.50, Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($30.50) K (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls $15, 1 fold

River: ($60.50) K (2 players)
SB bets $11.50, Hero raises $25 (All-In), SB calls $12.09 (All-In)

Total pot: $107.68

Results:
Hero had 9, A (flush, Ace high).
SB had K, K (four of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: SB won $104.68


Turn bet obviously should have been larger, thought it was. I almost just flat called river but I thought AK was in his range and would play like this. Bleh.

How much would you recommend betting on turn? I mean, our hand is faceup anyway whatever we bet, so whats best amount to get calls from sets and FDs?


Hand 3
Was on my way to recovery, when I came across a spot I've spoken about a bit before, which is where an opponents line doesnt make sense, so I call down. I really think I should have found a fold here though. Villain was a TAG 21/16 or something, and I just couldnt believe a competent player would c/r a set on such a dry board, so weighted his range heavily towards bluffs. Prob a fold on turn and def on river I think.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($56.77)
CO ($50.75)
Button ($58.36)
SB ($50)
UTG ($16.78)
BB ($95.78)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10, 10
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, 2 folds, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) 3, 8, 4 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB raises $11.08, 1 fold, Hero calls $7.58

Turn: ($26.66) 4 (2 players)
SB bets $11, Hero calls $11

River: ($48.66) J (2 players)
SB bets $26.42 (All-In), Hero calls $26.42

Total pot: $101.50

Results:
SB had 8, 8 (full house, eights over fours).
Hero had 10, 10 (two pair, tens and fours).
Outcome: SB won $98



I mean, some bet sizing errors in there in hand 2, and hand 3 is probably bad, but still the first 2 hands I was above 75% when the bulk of the money went in. Wiped out last nights winnings, so back to the grind again I guess. Biggest winning hand was less than $20. Down $96 for the session, so I guess I did well in the smaller pots at least.

Defo fold turn in #3 at the latest, maybe even flop. With three to the frop and him being oop Id think his bluffing freq is a one digit %.

Actually, lets use hand 2 as a chance to run some numbers.

If villain 'knows' I have a flush, and he assumes he always gets the rest of my stack if he hits, then his equity:

Board: 6c Qd 5d Kd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 77.273% 77.27% 00.00% 34 0.00 { Ad9d }
Hand 1: 22.727% 22.73% 00.00% 10 0.00 { KcKh }


As played he has to call $15 into a pot of $45, but we add the other $23.5 left in his stack afterwards, so $15 to win $68.5. So he needs odds of:

15/(15+68.5) =>15/83.5 = 18%

So I did give him correct odds. To give him incorrect odds...hmm, I tried doing this mathmatically and couldnt, anyone know the formula?

Anyway, trial and error:

$20 => 20/(20+68.5) => 22.5.

So thats interesting, if I put him on exactly a set, then I need to be more than $20. What about some kind of range:

Board: 6c Qd 5d Kd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 91.919% 91.92% 00.00% 1092 0.00 { Ad9d }
Hand 1: 08.081% 08.08% 00.00% 96 0.00 { QQ+, AKs, KQs, AKo, KQo }

So if I give him the widest reasonable range then my $15 is easily enough. If he can fold TPTK:

Board: 6c Qd 5d Kd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 87.879% 87.88% 00.00% 696 0.00 { Ad9d }
Hand 1: 12.121% 12.12% 00.00% 96 0.00 { QQ+, KQs, KQo }

Again, $15 good. Interestingly if I take out 2P hands and only leave sets and AA:

Board: 6c Qd 5d Kd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 84.848% 84.85% 00.00% 336 0.00 { Ad9d }
Hand 1: 15.152% 15.15% 00.00% 60 0.00 { QQ+ }

So its really only if he calls with sets and only sets that I need to bet more. I guess it becomes a value question though. Should I actually say bet smallish to get value from all those weaker hands, or do I assume whatever I bet he only calls with sets and so need to bet larger? Say $24 or something?

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Defo fold turn in #3 at the latest, maybe even flop. With three to the frop and him being oop Id think his bluffing freq is a one digit %.

Yeah, I think you're right. Better to make a potential small mistake by folding than a big mistake by calling off my whole stack as a dog.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

So I did give him correct odds. To give him incorrect odds...hmm, I tried doing this mathmatically and couldnt, anyone know the formula?

Amount to bet be "z"

You want z / pot + z + stack(effective) -z > villians equity

or z > villians equity * (pot + z + stack(effective) - z)
z > villians equity * (pot + stack(effective))

So with numbers from your first example

z > .22727 * (45.5 + 38.84)
z > 19.16

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'm not sure if others see this, but I tend to find different sites have different play styles. Kind of like, if you dont have a read, theres a default read that works fairly well for the site. Everest was very bluffy, iPoker contained a lot of floaters. On Party its mainly stations. It really seems to be all about value betting. Most of my bigger losses were bluffs. I've gotten used to being able to represent hands and get people to fold. Here thats just burning money so far. It feels a lot like going back to micro stakes. Very little bluffing, very little levelling, just make good TP type hands and win a lot of small/med pots. In those 3 buyins I won from from when I hit my bottom yesterday, I think only one was a big pot.

do you find that those general styles of play maintain through the different levels or do they differ between levels on a site. In theory if people are moving up through the levels they will be taking a style of play that they have learnt to be successful and trying to apply at the next level up. But then I guess its a case of what % have moved from a lower level , % moved recently from another site and % who have moved across some time ago and adapted to the prevalent style at that level.
Also found the devonshire tea reference above amusing as I don't think you could get much further away from Devon.

hand 1 - I'm not sure how i feel about a shove on the river. I mean, it's close but does he get to the river with a Th or worse.. and does he call this river? It would be a much better spot to shove if you had K5hh or something and the board was Th high.. than this board where its not possible for him to have Jh, Kh or Qh. Might even be better off c/c here or something and hoping he bluffs.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. Thing is, does he ever bluff there? He obviously has something worth showing down. Really sucks that he cant have a h other than Th or less, because a lot of his range is pair+draw type hands. He might call river with a set? Doubtful he bets it though.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'm not sure if others see this, but I tend to find different sites have different play styles. Kind of like, if you dont have a read, theres a default read that works fairly well for the site. Everest was very bluffy, iPoker contained a lot of floaters. On Party its mainly stations. It really seems to be all about value betting. Most of my bigger losses were bluffs. I'

agreed. I had a bad experience reading about non-showdown winnings and trying to make mine better. 4 buyins later I gave up, and now I've won it back with value bets...

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Originally Posted by bjsaust

So I did give him correct odds. To give him incorrect odds...hmm, I tried doing this mathmatically and couldnt, anyone know the formula?

Amount to bet be "z"

You want z / pot + z + stack(effective) -z > villians equity

or z > villians equity * (pot + z + stack(effective) - z)
z > villians equity * (pot + stack(effective))

So with numbers from your first example

z > .22727 * (45.5 + 38.84)
z > 19.16

Thanks, I had similar but not quite, must have gotten myself confused.

One thing that occurs to me though, whatever he's calling with, be it TPTK, 2P, Set, he's going to end up on the river with a tiny stack/pot ratio. Even with my $15 bet, he's going to have less than $25 left with a pot of $75, can he really fold if he misses on the river? So theres definately reverse implied odds on his behalf to consider as well as the implied odds. Even if say he only calls half the time on the river, that $15 bet is effectively $27 which is easily enough.

I think thats valid reasoning anyway.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

do you find that those general styles of play maintain through the different levels or do they differ between levels on a site.

Yeah, so far I have. It was the same from 25nl to 50nl on Everest, the same from 50nl to 100nl on iPoker and the same from 50nl to 100nl on Everest. I'm not sure why its the case, I can only assume its a bit of a case of monkey see, monkey do. They learn off each other.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Also found the devonshire tea reference above amusing as I don't think you could get much further away from Devon.

Lol true, but devonshire tea's are very popular in Australia, definately one of my favorite snacks!!

Originally Posted by daven

agreed. I had a bad experience reading about non-showdown winnings and trying to make mine better. 4 buyins later I gave up, and now I've won it back with value bets...

Yeah, I'd really been working on (and having success with) barrelling and representing ranges, and really focusing on my aggression on Everest, and it just backfired here. Hopefully at 100nl I can work that stuff back in, because it sure makes poker more interesting, but for now its mainly back to grinding value bets.

Little story about stats and sample size.

I jump onto Party yesterday, and end up on a table with Jyms. He's got position two spots to my left, and its fairly obvious that the table money is the seat between us. I start raising a lot preflop because this guy is calling a lot and folding most flops. Seems like the kind of guy who loses a lot of small pots, but when they get big he generally has a hand worthy of a big pot (a common mistake by a lot of TAGs is not identifying this and losing stacks with TPTK type hands v's them). Anyway, I play an interesting hand on another table and msg Jym about it, and conversation turns to this target. I have about 50 hands on him, at 75% fold to cbet, so like I say I'm just raising wide and cbetting a heap. Jyms has about 200 hands on him, and has him at 40% fold to cbet, so Jyms is looking to make good TP hands against him and value town him. Same fish, same table, but our adjustments are polar opposites because of stats over different sample sizes. Shortly after this I see him call two barrels with a gutshot and call river with a weak TP hand, so I think Jyms read was right (as you'd expect with larger sample), and he must have just been completely whiffing against me in the hands we played.

Just a lesson that stats dont tell the whole story, especially over small samples.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I jump onto Party yesterday, and end up on a table with Jyms. He's got position two spots to my left, and its fairly obvious that the table money is the seat between us.

i was going to tell a story about sitting between you and Jyms on party, but I think i won't bother now

You still partying at 50nl for a while longer? I reached my first "move up to 100nl party bankroll target", then reached my second such target, and i guess I'll just have to move up sometime, but I'm scared that the players won't suck as bad...

+$42 on million dollar hands

I'm now break even on Party, so I'll wait till I win 2 more buyins even though I'm technically well rolled for 100nl. I still want to make sure I'm playing well before I do after the way I started the month.

Meh, ok I lied. Couldnt find good 50nl tables tonight so jumped on some 100nl ones. Ran good, played well (I think), was up over a buyin until I lost with a set v's overpair on flop which turned OESD on turn when the rest of my money went in v's one of the bigger stations I've met (75% in a 250BB pot ). Sill, I got back $70 about 5 hands later off him. Ended the session up a bit over $80, so happy with that given I ran 2 buyins below EV.

I think I hit 3 sets for the session which obviously helps, but felt I was using aggression well. One thing Im starting to do which people here have been hammering into me for a while (ironically) is to keep hammering on weakness. TAGfish who steals 60% OTB but folds to 3bets 80% and doesnt adjust? Hello, I'm a 3-bet maniac! Limp/call pf, fold flop, hello I'm an isolating/cbetting machine!!

I think I'm playing well v's specific opponents again, which is a real key. Robot poker might work, but its not optimal. So feeling confident to stay up now.

I bought the new ebook people are talking about Small Stakes NLHE. I think its really going to help me. It seems to primarily address areas that I think have been issues in my game. Trying to work through it slowly, and take good notes while I go, rather than just read through like most books. I think it influenced my play tonight, I was trying to keep it in mind.

Heres an interesting hand:

This was my 3rd hand at the table, and was already my second 3-bet, so I think he's calling light and likely to 'play back at the maniac' on a flop that doesnt hit my range.


No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($112.58)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($141.80)
CO ($155.88)
UTG ($103.88)
MP ($97.19)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, 8
2 folds, CO bets $3.50, Hero raises $11, 2 folds, CO calls $7.50

Flop: ($23.50) 7, 6, 9 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $13, CO raises $28, Hero raises $88.58 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $79.50

I think after 3 hands it's difficult to put someone on 'playing back at the maniac'.

You're credibly repping 98s, 88+ so I'm thinking you'll get a fold from a decent player with any 8 + pair kind of hand. Other than that I have to think that you're only folding out air. Still probably the highest EV play and it could do wonders for your image if shown down.

since when do u 3bet light

Trying to work it in more . I 3bet light, but nowhere near enough.

Maybe not enough to be seen as a maniac dev, but I think I 3-bet my BB and cbet the flop, raised my SB (think BB folded) then 3-bet my button and now cbet a board not likely to hit me, he's probably either going to think I'm a bit of a maniac, or think I'm positionally aware and at least have a fair chance of bluffing here. As you say, once I get to this spot I think its the only way to play, and if I get called I have 8 outs and possibly 11.

I think I only have about 4-5% 3bet on average, and I only 3-bet QQ+,AK for value, so around 2-3% bluff range. Thats way too low and hardly going to inspire fear or silliness in my opponents. So generally speaking trying to increase my aggression overall in the right spots against the right opponents

I feel like I 3bet kind of tight but my 3bet stat is like 7%.

Just finsihed a monster session down $80, which is ok since I was down $300 at one point. Felt like I ran really bad, but on review I think I should have found some folds I didnt:

Hand 1

Villain is bad aggressive, 1 or 2 hands previous he min c/r me on Q95tt flop and folded to a 3bet.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($127.13)
BB ($258.89)
UTG ($101.63)
MP ($151.14)
Button ($255.63)
CO ($119.42)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP bets $3, 1 fold, Button calls $3, Hero raises $13.50, 2 folds, Button raises $22, Hero raises $113.13 (All-In)


Hand 2

44/19 over small sample, didnt fold to the only previous 3bet

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($142.33)
Hero (SB) ($112.88)
MP ($143.18)
UTG ($106.28)
BB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
2 folds, Button bets $4, Hero raises $13.50, 1 fold, Button calls $10

Flop: ($29) 7, 5, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls $15

Turn: ($59) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $24, Button raises $64.50, Hero calls $40.50

River: ($188) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $48.83 (All-In), Hero calls $19.38 (All-In)

I dont know why, I keep putting TT-QQ type hands in there range here.


Hand 3

This ones just stupid. Early on table, guy who bets on river is 33/33 but small sample.


No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($112.25)
MP ($100)
SB ($204.34)
BB ($345.18)
CO ($142.27)
UTG ($163.48)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
1 fold, MP bets $4, 1 fold, Hero raises $12, 1 fold, BB calls $11, MP calls $8

Flop: ($36.50) 2, 4, 8 (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $25, BB calls $25, MP calls $25

Turn: ($111.50) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($111.50) 3 (3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $63 (All-In), Hero calls $63, 1 fold

Total pot: $237.50


Hand 4

Normally river is b/f, but villain is very bluffy, I hadnt seen him slowplay a hand yet, so felt he was capable of bluff raising river. I dunno, given he's pretty bluffy maybe the fact he didnt bluff turn says something, but I felt he maybe had showdown value and didnt want to bluff, but then he wouldnt bluff raise the river would he? He was like 55/23, definately the table money but running super hot (and like I say, all his 2P type hands he played fast)

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($180.15)
UTG ($447.65)
BB ($194.20)
Button ($100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3, 3
UTG bets $4, Button calls $4, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($13) 9, 4, 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $7, 1 fold, Hero raises $24, UTG calls $17

Turn: ($61) J (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($61) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $28, UTG raises $65, Hero calls $37

Total pot: $191

No thoughts on those hands? Fwiw I asked Griffey to go through them and he wouldnt have folded any, but then he admitted that everyone he shows hands to thinks he's a calling station, so I'm not sure whether thats good or bad for me...

So Party is going along. My graph looks really swingy so far. Soft but in the kind of way where I'm playing some big pots with strongish hands against wide ranges but sometimes they have it. Like a 60/0 guy who called down 2 hands with middle pair no kicker so when I had JJ on a T high board I bet for max value and he called down with QQ. It happens, but I'll be up a couple buyins then play a couple hands like that to knock a lot of profit off. So I'm up $100 over 7k hands which is obviously less than I'd like, but I'm also over $400 below EV so stick at it. Think I'm getting a real good feel on how to beat the games, just gotta remember to fold sometimes.

#1 Dont fold and prob don´t call. His sizing makes stack sizes awkward, but I dont think you can not shove.

#2 Stop associating this line with TT-QQ, seriously. Assuming hes a true fish I´d b/3b, no point in having 20 behind on the river. He shows up with a lot of pr+draw, 2pr and sets, along with TPTK and TP2K. Lacking a solid fish read Id go for b/f turn c/f river

#3 Sucky spot. Im folding because paying off small sets in 3bet pots drives me insane. Especially when the greedy fucker slowplayed his hand all the way.

#4 bet turn, as played c/c or c/r river

Hmm, so you actually put more hands in his range in hand 2? Agree on b/3b though, dunno why I dont do that. Thats cool though, at least you agree most are folds.

H1 - AA
H2 - 77
H3 - 56!
H4 - KhXh

Just some run bad then I guess.

hand 1
at best you'r flipping after the min 4-bet. Call or fold.

hand 2
range is wide. I dunno, his range is 22-AA/AK/some random stuff. On the flop he's narrowing his range to 55+ (sets, overpairs, gutshots). That turn makes for a check-call. If you're going to call the raise then you should shove cos it leaves you about nothing behind anyway.

hand 3
pre-flop good. Flop good. Turn is meh I dunno bet or check behind. I probably bet in 6-max. River easy fold.

hand 4
ahhh, sets out of position. I don't like the flop c-r, hell I prefer c-c and c-bomb turn. As played river check-call or check-shove.

I cant possibly work out why check/shove is good, but bet/call is bad in hand 4?

because hes the bluffy guy who will insta stab at boards like this. b/f tightens his bluffing range significantly

but c/c takes care of his bluffs, you're putting hands in his value bet/call shove range that arent in is raising range? Surely there arent many.

Interesting session just now. Only logged on to play 30 mins or so, ended up playing over 2 hours. Initially just couldnt get things going, just hovering around break even for about 300 hands, then steady drop going absolute card dead for a while, then a cooler (QQ v's J5 on J56tt board v's guy with 30% donk bet), a tilty calldown when an obvious flush hit turn, and looks like another big pot in there and suddenly I'm down over 2 buyins. Nearly quit, felt so close to tilting, but focused in, got my game back and played steady. Finally got some hands and those hands got paid, finished the night up $50.

Obviously upset I got tilted for a bit there, but happy I got back on track. I'm now less than a buyin off break even for the month, after the 10 buyin downswing early. Party I'm up almost $600 so far. Fairly happy all around atm.

Nice +3 buyin (almost) session. Won a flip QQ > AKs v's a reg and stacked another reg with set v's TPTK on drawy board both for full stacks. Won a bunch of medium pots bluff catching. Had position on a maniac who just kept on betting when checked to constantly which helped. I'm now back up for the month, closing in on $5k. Feeling pretty good.

Couple hands:

Hand 1

Both players pretty std tags, I'd just ticked the option to sit out my next BB.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($102)
BB ($100)
Button ($123.68)
MP ($100)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
1 fold, MP bets $3, Button calls $3, Hero calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($10) J, Q, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $7, 1 fold, Button raises $20, Hero raises $92 (All-In), Button calls $79

Turn: ($208) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($208) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $208

Results:
Button had Q, A (one pair, Queens).
Hero had J, J (three of a kind, Jacks).
Outcome: Hero won $206

I worried it was the kind of flop that might check through if PFR had something like AK, but I'd expect that to call me and hands like AQ, JQ and KK+ to raise me, KQ maybe just flat. People love to put you on a draw when you play like this. He tanked a long time before calling my shove, which just shows a truism of Samo's he keeps talking about in vids. Dont bet or raise unless you know what you plan to do if raised, he put himself into a shitty spot by raising my 'draw' but then wtf'd himself when I shoved over. Its a spot where he only ever gets in at best flipping and quite possibly crushed (as in this case).


Hand 2

This ones a bit more interesting, especially since I misread stats initially. Relatively new to table, but have 500 mined hands on him at 52/8 with 46% fold to cbet. He only raises flop cbet 3%, but what I missed initially on turn is that he raises turn cbet 35%. So thoughts on play both with and without that stat?

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($100)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($163.61)
UTG ($185.73)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
1 fold, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6.50) 3, J, 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4

Turn: ($14.50) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $9, BB raises $18, Hero calls $9

River: ($50.50) 2 (2 players)
BB bets $21, Hero calls $21

Total pot: $92.50

Results:
Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and threes).
BB had 6, Q (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $90

Originally Posted by daven

+$42 on million dollar hands

13 hands: $12

Hand 2 I think you can size your bets bigger. He probably raises the turn a lot because it's seen as a "set line" when someone calls the flop and raises the turn. So he knows that and is doing it as a bluff. CiB?

Agree on betsizing, not standard for me, especially on flop. Cant remember any reason for betting so small v's a fish who doesnt fold much.

Had some thoughts to put down, cant remember them now and in the office atm. Might have some strategy or something to post later.

BR > $5k!

Ok, I promise not to make a fuss every time I reach $1k more, but this is probably the most significant milestone in my mind since reaching $1k BR. Basically, this means I completed the Op I had in mind when I started this thread. $5k was my "I've got a BR now" point in my head. Obviously like anyone who's played this game for a while knows, I still have a lot more to learn and always will, but the build a roll part is completed.

From here on, half of any money I earn is earmarked for withdrawal. Win $100, thats another $50 I can withdraw next time I do. I wanted a nice solid BR base as a buffer before I started doing any withdrawals.

Why is my sig Op $10k instead of $5k then? Basically, $10k is when I plan to make my first withdrawal, which will be $2.5k (so I win 5 then withdraw half of it).

So long month in that I started with around $4.6k, but after the 10 $1k downswing at the start I'm obviously happy just to pull in a positive month (so far anyway). Few more days to go, unlikely to reach my $6k mark for shots at 200nl this month, but hopefully can move a bit closer still. Pulling in $1k including bonuses this month would rock.

Some of that is obviously bonus and stuff, but I'm up a few dollars short of $1k on Party, and $350 overall for the month, so pokers positive, not just overall BR growth.[/b]

Heres another good example of that point about knowing how you'll react to a raise if you bet or raise yourself:

Dont remember stats, but basic Taggy Reg.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($100)
BB ($125.50)
Button ($101)
UTG ($109.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, A
1 fold, Button bets $4, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($9) J, K, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($9) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($9) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $5, Button raises $13, Hero raises $51, Button calls $43

Total pot: $121

Results:
Button didn't show
Hero had 10, A (straight, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $119


Now he tanked his entire timebank down before calling. My point isnt whether his raise was good (although his call almost certainly is bad), the point is that his raise is bad if he hasnt already considered what he's going to do if I reraise. That should be decided, before (or as a part of) his decision to raise in the first place, not after I do it.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

BR > $5k!

Congrats, man!! Nice job.