Tips on how to stop from learning bad habits?

I've been reading Small Stakes Hold'em, and they make a great point, and I want advice on how to avoid a trap they point out.

It's about how you learn. From the beginning of time humans learn from what they experience...

You touch fire; you get burned and learn not to touch fire.

Then along comes poker.

You touch the fire (call that all in with JTs) and instead of getting burned, this time you happen to find gold (JTs hit a flush, busting AA).

Now your learning system will think that calling an all in with JTs is a good move.

I just used that as an example, and that’s a very easy to avoid mistake, but others become much harder to see and avoid. For example...

K6s, 54s, ect..

Take my last 5k hands.. KK is my biggest losing hand.
I know I’m playing it right because I have reviewed the hands I see that in the 19 times I’ve had KK in the last 5k hands, 6 time I’ve been up against an AA. Because of things like that, what should be one of my best hands has been one of the worse hands. That tells me that even 5,000 hands are not even close to enough to call learn from. So how can I judge 54s and hands like that?


Any tips on handling this problem?

SSH is a limit HE book. If you are playing NL, you are going to have to take a lot of the hands that is ok to play in a limit game and throw them in the garbage.

Your pattern recognizer is what you are talking about. SSH hold 'em does mention this and how critical it is to stop it, but unfortunately, gives no real recommendations on how to do so.

The best way to keep your pattern recognizer in check is to avoid playing marginal and crappy hands in the first place. If you don't give your pattern recognizer a chance to run wild, it won't. As far as negative effect on your premium hands like KK. You are right, it's your sample size. Have faith in the mathical probability that KK is going to win you money in the long run. With a bad run like you've had with it, it's going to take a while for you to get +EV out of KK but it will come with enough hands.

If you are playing NL, you are going to have to take a lot of the hands that is ok to play in a limit game and throw them in the garbage.

not to worry, i didnt get it for the hand list. =)

I play mostly NL at the .10/.25 level, and I think you should play more hands (playing the hands in more posistions more than playing more hands) at that level than at the higher limits.. but a few hands i'm not sure about like that Kxs. People are willing to go all in with even a 7 high flush, so you can win a lot against bad players with it, but at the same time, your can be the one going allin against a A high flush.

My overall recommendation is to value playing correctly over winning. Every time you lay cards down that, after the fact, got lucky and would have won, applaud yourself for making the right play regardless. Everytime you correctly play strong cards and someone outdraws you applaud yourself for playing them the way they should have been played. This will reinforce quality play and will reward you long term.

Remember, YOU make money off people making bad decisions that work out for them Sometimes, but generally just leak their chips away. When they happen to get lucky then THEY are being reinforced to continue making that poor call or playing those low probability cards. That's where You make your money. You are NOT the one who makes bad decisions.

You'll see posts on here about not getting onto bad players when they make stupid calls and get lucky. Tell them nice hand and reinforce that bad decision making. It'll pay off long term.

I've played for years and continued to reinforce the importance of quality tight/agressive play for value, in position, etc. When I don't do that, regardless of how it works out, I get onto myself. And when I dump cards for the right reasons (or get bad beats with quality), I give myself credit.

This has translated into a very profitable passtime for me.

The fact that you're asking about it probably means that you're going to do fine on that front. And it will work out for you. Continue to evaluate your play and play the smartest game for what you're doing - limit and NL have different "optimal play", ring and tournament have different "optimal play".

Know what you're playing, know why you're playing it, have a plan of attack based on everything you've learned to date, and execute. When the session is over review your PLAY not your Results. If you do that, then the results will be there over the long term.

The KK example, for instance. Why do you play KK agressively? How do you play it for maximum value? What are the odds of running into AA? When someone calls you preflop and is drawing how do you cause them to make mistakes? Etc.

The answers by the way are:
- To reduce the field (since KK is best against 1 or 2 players, not 4)
- Don't overbet and push Everyone out preflop, bet 1/2 the pot or more on the flop
- I don't know, I'm not a statistics person. But it's rare.
- Bet 1/2 the pot or more on the flop which will give them unfavorable odds to call. (if it's a 3 way pot and someone infront of you bets less than required to take away drawing odds - with a draw on the board obviously - then raise it up to at least the amount that will give them poor odds to draw

The specific answer to your question is above. If you understand not just WHAT to do, but WHY YOU'RE DOING IT. Then you won't have to "reinforce" as much and will just play correctly instinctively. Plus, if you understand WHY, then you can learn how to bend the WHAT to suit the situation. There are times when you vary from the "optimal play" because you won't get the results that you want. That's where experience and knowledge turn into poker "wisdom" if such a thing exists.

Luckily poker is like Tennis and not like Golf. In golf you're trying to beat an imaginary "Par" score. You can play your whole life and not "win" at golf. Because you'll never shoot par. In Tennis you just have to be better than the guy in front of you. In poker you don't even have to be better than ALL the guys in front of you, and you don't have to be better ALL the time. You just need to be better than the other people in whatever particular hand you're in MOST of the time. It's a very forgiving game if you know how to play it, and it's a brutal game if you don't. Because to be ravaged only ONE person in the hand needs to be better than you MOST of the time.

Also luckily, in most games the bad players reinforce each other by paying each other's bad plays off. The way you make money is punishing them when you're in a hand, and let them reinforce each other's bad play when you're not. That's why when the table is loose and goofy, you don't get loose and goofy with it.

I hope that helps. Best of luck to you. You have the right attitude to be successful both quickly and long term.

Originally Posted by Laeelin

If you are playing NL, you are going to have to take a lot of the hands that is ok to play in a limit game and throw them in the garbage.

not to worry, i didnt get it for the hand list. =)

I play mostly NL at the .10/.25 level, and I think you should play more hands (playing the hands in more posistions more than playing more hands) at that level than at the higher limits.. but a few hands i'm not sure about like that Kxs. People are willing to go all in with even a 7 high flush, so you can win a lot against bad players with it, but at the same time, your can be the one going allin against a A high flush.

You may want to explain this more. I don't know if I necessarily agree with it, but I don't have to agree for it to be right. (I'm no expert, for sure.) But I'ld love to hear more before I disagree. For instance, is there more of a risk playing late position cards in early position because you may be raised more than in limit? I think Kxs is a bad play regardless of position. (I keep forgetting to post my "lose your love for suited connectors" rant.) But, others may say you're a genius if you post more thoughts on this.

And actually, now that I read it for the 4th time, I'm beginning to disagree with the basic premise. I've made lots of money playing .05/.1 up to $1/$2 no limit, and I play them the same for exactly the reason he made this post. You're teaching yourself Bad Habits if you decide that people will play 7 high flush so I can play T high flush, etc. And those types of decisions are how I make lots of money. People never consider that I'm playing an A high flush, or trips, or the nut straight because they've varied from correct play and started playing the lowest common denominator.

The problem with bad players in tourney is their mistaken call blows you a way or cripples you. Now someone else will eventually benefit and tak their chips but you are SOL. Thats why I envy good ring game players cause the can rebuy and eventually get their chips back.

Thinking about this I decided to refer to fish who make their hands in tourneys as land mines cause the danger is hard to spot and when you step on it you're dead or crippled. Such as the guy who called my 5x BB bet with 8 4 o and flopped a boat. then slow played me almost to the felt. I had KK btw.

I am glad someone dredged this up. I have just finished reading SSH and I DID apply the staring hand recs to NL. I have been doing OK with it but it is such a short time that I can’t comment too much. Initially I did really well then went into a slump I have not come out of yet in about 2 weeks of play.

Could someone post general reasons why starting hands for limit should be way different than NL? Your right aokrongly, he does advocate playing SCs almost exclusively. The theory is that it gives you 3 ways to win, straight, flush, and of course pairing. Anyway, I’d love to hear more about how the starting hands should differ.

After thinking about this a bit I think the difference is:
In limit you will have odds to draw much more often. Consequentaly, limit starting charts will over value SCs and under value high offsuit cards like AQo, AJo, etc. I guess I'll go back to using my previous chart. Actually, I'll wing it and see how I do with memory/logic. Ive been at it long enough I should be ok. hehe.

Make a new chart. Charts are a specialized thing. Want mine. It's easy (I use this from nl100 to nl1000). pp, ak, aq, aj, kq, kj. I'll raise pp ten and up ak, aq. call unraised pots with aj, kq, kj, and call reasonble preflop raises with pp 9 and under. Short list huh? I don't care about suited or unsuited, but if they happen to be suited and I happen to hit a flush draw on the flop, then i play it accordingly.

Position matters a little less in NL because you can literally TAKE POSITION (or make it irrelevent) by making a big bet or going AI. In limit raising AK and missing your flop is what it is. In NL it's whatever you make it. If you raise 5xBB preflop and then bet the pot as a continuation bet you'll get no callers unless the flop hit someone square in the teeth or they have a really big pocket pair. In limit you can't do that. That's why hands are valued differently, they are bet differently, and once you unlock the secrets of betting and know that it's a fold or raise game then you're gonna do just fine.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Make a new chart. Charts are a specialized thing. Want mine. It's easy (I use this from nl100 to nl1000). pp, ak, aq, aj, kq, kj. I'll raise pp ten and up ak, aq. call unraised pots with aj, kq, kj, and call reasonble preflop raises with pp 9 and under. Short list huh? I don't care about suited or unsuited, but if they happen to be suited and I happen to hit a flush draw on the flop, then i play it accordingly.

aokrongly - Would you use this same strategy at the micro limits?

What do you suggest the raises be with the hands you raise in 25NL.

It seems that a simple $1-1.5 bet would be called to often by anyone who takes a chance in "cracking" your AA, etc.

Same question as someone mentioned above:

Would you suggest this same chart for the 25NL games?

Thanks!

You called all-ins with JT??????

i wouldn't suggest anything for Micro-LIMIT because i haven't played limit in years. For micro-NL I would suggest counter-play. But you have to read counter-play theory (in my counter-play post to see if it applies to the tables you play. Generally micro-limits is NO FOLDEM HOLDEM. And in that case you will be "donkey kicked" often enough that it's not variance - it's neg EV. So, you adjust your tactics - hence Counter-play.

My real recommendation, if you know how to play poker at any reasonable level, is not to play micro-nl. You don't have to bump much on some sites $50 NL is good enough to get preflop callers to around 50% and continuation bets or pot sized bets can get drawing hands to fold. What's the difference. It's 2005, $25 is not real money. Decide your poker game is worth $150, and play the $50NL table. When in doubt tighten up. Did I say Tight? I meant T-I-G-H-T. When in doubt crank down the screws and get tighter preflop. when in doubt on the flop, raise or fold. Agression buys pots, but it also buys information. wanna know if your tptk is good when someone else leads the betting, raise him! He'll tell you. Then believe him.

Got it? the answers are Counter-play.... screw counter-play and move up in stakes. Learn how to play TAG poker, TIGHTY IS RIGHTY.... LEFTY IS LOOSERY.

pick a number, either 4 or 5xbb preflop to always raise if you're going to raise. then play the hand as appropriate. keep them guessing and lay the hand down if you're beat.

If someone said to me "give me a play that defines a fish" I'd have said "calling unraised hands with KJ". But AOKrongly does it! Aaargh! I'm so confused!

lol kj is the absolute worst hand i play and realize play it very carefully. plus when i take a pot with it, or bet and get folded around I'll show it.

don't doubt yourself kj is a fish call, but it's my little kookie call hand that i play very carefully. but it's not the ultimate fish call, i mean you have a9, kt and kxs, i mean i see them all even at 1000nl ring games

In terms of avoiding bad habits I recommend reading up on ITH,SSH,and other Skalansky books.Def browse the forums and keep your knowledge of poker up to date.