thought provoker?

there are those of us that aspire to turn pro. and, there are those that dont. there are those of us that try and fail. there are those of us that try and bail.

there are many FTR'rs contemplating this very thing. and, i want to provide what i can to make your decisions easier...on yourself. there's no shame in moving on. there's no shame in never going pro. poker is what it is, and this article is meant for somebody....read it...

http://www.thepokerchronicles.com/archives/000947.html

This is a great quote from the comments section - a bit of wisdom for the younger poker players here at FTR...

I have played poker in cleveland for over 15 years and I am still a winning player but, I believe you are right on in your assessment. I see so many young guys playing now and it's all from TV, they are so serious and believe there is a great future in poker for them. Bottom line is that if these players spent their energy on a carreer, education, relationships they would be light years ahead of someone spending hour after hour playing cards. It is fun and if you study the game you can be a winner but only as a hobby. TV has made poker out to be some high paying professional type of sport...please...some dude wins a tourney and has been playing cards two years, when was the last time you saw a professional baseball, football, basketball, golf, tennis player say "just picked up the game 2 years ago". You can argue that their have been millions made by some each year in poker but I could fill a room with probably more people who won millions in the lottery during the same time period. Poker is also a social game, I really find it hard to believe people sit on the internet all day tryng to make a buck, how boring a life that would be. I look at it this way, say I put you in a room for 12 hours a day, each day I gave you an envelope of money say 500, some food, let you sleep and once and a while I let you out to see friends but only sparingly because we need to get back in the room for the envelope. One month passes, 6 months pass, one year goes by. You grow tired of the room but you know if you leave no envelope, and thats if your a winning player. Keep it social, make it a paying hobby and develop a life and relationships.

the funny thing about the last couple of lines there?

in a room, for an envelope, let you out once in awhile, but you got to go back...for the envelope?

SOUNDS LIKE CORPORATE AMERICA, to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its not just poker. and, in fact, poker allows things that corporate america doesnt. but, the trade off is security.

if you want "freedom," become self-employed. if you want "prison," go get a fuggin' job. i dont understand why this country cant see that. man, it may be time for another post in the "rant."

I think a lot of people - some of the "kids" on the poker forums - underestimate how much money you have to earn with poker to make a "decent" living. I would need almost $200k per year in winnings (never mind building bankroll) to replace my salary plus benefits while paying high tax rates, matching social security and private healthy insurance. You can't live off $3k a month in poker winnings and have a great life. You certainly can't support a family that way.

On top of that you need massive cash assets on hand to survive the inevitable downswings, or you're stuck spending some active bankroll paying the bills. I have the utmost respect for folks making a living off this game. It truly has to be one of the toughest ways to live.

And careers / jobs are not the only option in life - even though some are very rewarding. I think anyone who is successful at a tough gig like poker has the intelligence, drive and analytical skills to consider building their own business too. Building a business is all about having your company, and other people, earn money for your initial hard work. Whether you are sick, on vacation, or ready to try something new later in life - the money still comes in.

Obviously with poker - when you dont put in the hours - you dont get paid - and sometimes you put in the hours and lose money...

There is big money for a select few talented people at poker, and it can give a 21 yo a great leg up in life to have 50k after a couple of years to put toward a car or house deposit - but people grow and change and want different things in life as a rule. Such as a family, kids, a steady income around which to build a life - and I know its hard to imagine when you are young - but it happens to just about everyone. Keeping poker as a paying hobby is the ideal way to go for most. An education, contacts, relationships, friends are what keeps your life intersting and open to new possibilities. These would be tough to develop when you are grinding 40 hours a week on your own in front of a computer - its something to consider.

Look at what the guys who own and run FTR have done - built a business that no doubt draws a great residual monthly payday based on referrals, affiliates, advertising, rakebake etc. They no doubt enjoy and play poker as well - but they earn money from FTR whether they want to work that week or not. That leaves them free to pay off their mortgage without worry, go out on Friday and Saturday nights, and have the fulfilling life they want. Hats off to the whole team behind this site for their continued success...

I will get off my soapbox now - I only write this because I worry about some of the younger guys here and hope this thread will get some thinking further (10 years) into the future and not limit their options for that different period of their lives.

Originally Posted by paulwright

And careers / jobs are not the only option in life - even though some are very rewarding. I think anyone who is successful at a tough gig like poker has the intelligence, drive and analytical skills to consider building their own business too. Building a business is all about having your company, and other people, earn money for your initial hard work. Whether you are sick, on vacation, or ready to try something new later in life - the money still comes in.

Obviously with poker - when you dont put in the hours - you dont get paid - and sometimes you put in the hours and lose money...

very well stated, paul.

if you look at this part here, it reminds me of Robert Kiyosaki's Cash Flow Quadrant. this is the difference between being self-employed and owning a business. there is a HUGE difference between the two. while both will arguably give you freedom, only one delivers "passive income."

as for the "talented few," i think thats true of any endeavor. its not like the Top 10% make it to CEO. or baseball MVP's, either. the ones that rise to the top have more talent or have worked harder than those in the middle and at the bottom. usually, the top has both more talent AND worked harder.

Good point Chopper - full time online poker is basically self-employment without all the tax benefits (just a hefty tax bill if you are American - or married to one like me)

[quote="Chopper"]

Originally Posted by paulwright

if you look at this part here, it reminds me of Robert Kiyosaki's Cash Flow Quadrant. this is the difference between being self-employed and owning a business. there is a HUGE difference between the two. while both will arguably give you freedom, only one delivers "passive income."

We should start a "great financial books to read" section for the "wannabe poker pros" on the site: Rich Dad Poor Dad, Millionaire Next Door, Total Money Makeover. I think some of the "poker kids" on FTR would find it hard to believe that winning $10,000 a month playing poker wouldn't benefit my family as much as my 50-hour/week teaching gig. But when you understand money, how it gets taxed, the cost of health insurance, the 401k (or 403b) match on retirement from your employer - there's a lot to be replaced. And not as much pretax dollars to spend.

By the way, before we had kids, my wife was full time, partner-track attorney. Plus my 50k's yearly from teaching (high school, at the time). We've been taxed at the $10k/month earning level, and it SUCKS. When you're self-employed you get to spend about 50% of what you make. The taxes alone turn $10k/month into $5k/month quickly.

Originally Posted by paulwright

Building a business is all about having your company, and other people, earn money for your initial hard work. Whether you are sick, on vacation, or ready to try something new later in life - the money still comes in.

It's also about understanding the very real life-changing risk. 8 out of 10 new businesses fail... most leaving those collateralizing them with personal assets on the wrong side of bankruptcy. So have to understand the risk and be clear on a back-up plan... Not too different than smart bankroll management. You've gotta love what you do, 'cause sometimes sweat equity is ALL you get and sweat ain't always liquid... not so different from poker. You gotta be willing to put the business first -- in front of everything many times, including getting paid -- for as long as it takes. Plus yes, there are the entrepreneurs that hit the cash jackpot or live like the founder of the ponzi scheme from heaven, but most I know (and I know quite a few...) are working their asses off with no prospects for just chillin' while the dough flows -- and that's the succesful companies. That being said... you don't find many successful entrepreneurs who don't have the manic type-A personality that is going to keep them in their business until their grey.

My real beef with folks like Kiyosaki is that he stops short of giving the real perspective on exactly what it takes (body, wallet and soul) to create a business that thrives to deliver the cash flow he's talking about. (Although you can prolly start to pick up some cheap foreclosures from all those people who bought into the "Get Rich on No-Money Down Real Estate" TV schemes over the past few years...) Prolly the same can be said of most people looking at poker as a much more attractive way to make money than their immediate day job prospects.

I don't quite know where I'm going with this except a meandering rant... so I guess I'll close with an amen for trying almost anything while you're young. Got a lot of family in in Europe that take 2-3 years to just travel the world after highschool equiv. graduation. Cause they can. I'm sitting here going "f----k, why didn't I do that when I could..."

So try all that sh!t when you got no bills, no obligations and paying for your old grey @ss is decades away. It'll give you a good perspective when you have to start thinking about the real world.

Amen, sarbox.

and, robb, imagine if these "pups" just took SOME of their winnings and invested them in some conservative mutual fund. talk about your head start on retirement.

but, the thing i love about WINNING poker players is: they are usually smart, non-douchebags, that have a clue when it comes to money-management.

coincidence? i think not.