Small pp's in SB

Hero is in SB w/ 33 at 6max. Two limpers, to Hero, to act in front of a passive BB. Hero should (almost always):

1. Limp.
2. Raise.

I haven't seen this discussed much, perhaps 'cuz it was obvious to all (except me) what the correct answer is. But if we're 7.5 to 1 against flopping a set, we basically have perfect pot odds to just limp in here. If any money besides ours goes in after flopping a set, we're +actual value.

Of course, if Hero can make MORE by raising, then he should. But it would be hard for me to abandon the perfect pot odds for a limp.

As long as both blinds are passive, the same reasoning applies to limping behind 2+ limpers when OTB.

Just wondering what others think/do in these situations with 22 - 66.

What is the read on the other two? That would determine part of it. Personally I invest as small an amount as possible with low PP and hope to flop trips, but if you know that the other players will fold to aggression you might want to raise here to build a pot you can take down after the flop with a good c-bet.

I don't play 6-max tho so I know strategy changes slightly.

Almost always limp.

Chances are he'll see the flop 3 way and perhaps 4 way and be OOP for the rest of the hand which sucks whether he hits his set or not.

Always exceptions but thats my general play. I think your range is about right, I probably raise 77+.

OTB is a bit different and reads/stack sizes play more into my decision there. I'd guess if I queried HEM I'd be about 50/50 OTB in that scenario. Maybe a bit more limping than raising. Now that we have position we dont mind building a bit of a pot v's the right people for if we hit.

I'll defitenely limp,c-betting 33 if we raise preflop wont be an easy task.If we hit by limping,slowplay with these passive players.

Agree that it's a limp. My reasoning relies heavily that you will be oop for the hand. Not to mention you probably aren't going to get the hand headsup. And it's harder to steal it when you don't hit oop.

And fwiw, I don't think it's bad to limp behind with small-mid pps OTB either. If the limpers love to limp/fold or limp/call, check/fold (like most do), then you can raise, but it's also +ev to limp behind, because when you do hit they will pay you still and you have only invested a little bit of money to do so.

Originally Posted by Robb

Hero is in SB w/ 33 at 6max. Two limpers, to Hero, to act in front of a passive BB. Hero should (almost always):

1. Limp.
2. Raise.

If any money besides ours goes in after flopping a set, we're +actual value. it depends

Just wondering what others think/do in these situations with 22 - 66.

These are not perfect pot odds cos of the nightmare reverse implied odds scenarios you are setting up for yourself... if it's an aggressively contested pot when your pair hits then you're going to be feeling ill.
My play at fullring 30-70 raise pot - limp. 33 multi-way often means being oop with bottom set on a connected board, wow, loving that shit. Post-flop edge dependent. OTB raise more like 60% of the time for balance.

Originally Posted by hangchiong

c-betting 33 if we raise preflop wont be an easy task.

it's very easy - hit the bet button!

Originally Posted by hangchiong

If we hit by limping,slowplay with these passive players.

no

Originally Posted by hangchiong

slowplay with these passive players.

Your thinking is flawed here. A passive player doesn't like to do what??? Your right if you say bet/raise. Therefore, you need to be the one pushing the aggression, or else you won't get money in the pot. If you know that a player is gonna bet out if you check, then you can go that route if the board is dry enough. But if there is a flush draw, or straight draw, then I'm leading out with my set almost always.

I'll raise 33 in SB if I have both opps pegged as tight. Chances are I'll then take it down preflop. If not, look to flop that set, and I'm hopefully up against a tpgk type hand I can stack. Without the set, I'm making it a semi-bluff cbet if I get a non-coordinated board, and c/f turn if I don't improve. Otherwise, probably check/fold it on the flop.

Usually, though, you don't have these ideal reads on both players, and it only takes one to make you wish you had just limped it. I think Lederer advocates limping small pp's, even on the button, and playing for set value.

Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

I'll raise 33 in SB if I have both opps pegged as tight. Chances are I'll then take it down preflop. If not, look to flop that set, and I'm hopefully up against a tpgk type hand I can stack. Without the set, I'm making it a semi-bluff cbet if I get a non-coordinated board, and c/f turn if I don't improve. Otherwise, probably check/fold it on the flop.

Most tight players aren't limping hands that make tpgk. The limping range of a tight player is small-mid pps, and suited connectors generally. I'm not saying you won't run into some players who have tightish stats that like hands like KJ etc, but generally it's the tight players are playing aggressively preflop because they are waiting for premium hands. So if you raise with your pp and tight players call and then go nuts on a board (especially a dry board) you could be in a world of hurt for a set over set. I'm not saying this wouldn't happen if you just limped, because the money is still going in most likely.

The problem with raising is that you have to steal on the flop 90% of the time, but you're OOP. On the CO and button you can raise all kinds of crap, just by knowing all the action before it comes to you you can make a profit.

definitely limp...

if you hit the set you'd probably wanna lead out too depending on the players and the board...

Originally Posted by oskar

The problem with raising is that you have to steal on the flop 90% of the time, but you're OOP. On the CO and button you can raise all kinds of crap, just by knowing all the action before it comes to you you can make a profit.

Why do you think you have to cbet 90% of the time for a raise to be profitable? Personally I would limp this all of the time unless I have very specific reads but a raise definately isn't horrible.

Originally Posted by daven

These are not perfect pot odds cos of the nightmare reverse implied odds scenarios you are setting up for yourself... if it's an aggressively contested pot when your pair hits then you're going to be feeling ill.
My play at fullring 30-70 raise pot - limp. 33 multi-way often means being oop with bottom set on a connected board, wow, loving that shit. Post-flop edge dependent. OTB raise more like 60% of the time for balance.

I like the OTB comment - solid.

For the set of 3's in multiway contested pot, I'm not that bothered, honestly. I have more than my share of equity most times there. But I do see enough problems to think about mixing up my "default" action.

I have to say I'm kind of surprised by the responses so far. My default play when I played FR was to raise from any position and take the pot down with a cbet when applicable. I found this made it much easier to get paid off when we hit our set. So far I've found at 6max it's played out pretty much the same, that's over a small sample size though.

Originally Posted by Trashcona

I have to say I'm kind of surprised by the responses so far. My default play when I played FR was to raise from any position and take the pot down with a cbet when applicable. I found this made it much easier to get paid off when we hit our set. So far I've found at 6max it's played out pretty much the same, that's over a small sample size though.

read the thread properly. 2 limpers and we're oop. Just setmine, it's easy, fun and profitable.

limp

bet if hit set. dont slowplay unless its a super monster

fold to flop aggression if missed

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Chances are he'll see the flop 3 way and perhaps 4 way and be OOP for the rest of the hand which sucks whether he hits his set or not.

Being OOP with a set does not really suck.

if u limp u gotta lead a set and build the pot. slowplayin wud be silly

Originally Posted by yourfather

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Chances are he'll see the flop 3 way and perhaps 4 way and be OOP for the rest of the hand which sucks whether he hits his set or not.

Being OOP with a set does not really suck.

No but being OOP in a raised multiway pot with an underpair sucks more, amirite?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by yourfather

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Chances are he'll see the flop 3 way and perhaps 4 way and be OOP for the rest of the hand which sucks whether he hits his set or not.

Being OOP with a set does not really suck.

No but being OOP in a raised multiway pot with an underpair sucks more, amirite?

Sounds good to me. Hence limping.

Complete, bluff some flops.

Originally Posted by yourfather

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by yourfather

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Chances are he'll see the flop 3 way and perhaps 4 way and be OOP for the rest of the hand which sucks whether he hits his set or not.

Being OOP with a set does not really suck.

No but being OOP in a raised multiway pot with an underpair sucks more, amirite?

Sounds good to me. Hence limping.

And also why Daven suggests raising more from the BTN behind limpers w/ small pp's, since underpairs suck less IP. He can balance his ranges without the HUGE oop downside to the bet.

Depends on what I think about the limpers on the over-limp vs raise line. Also I like to over-limp in aggro games because the blinds can get pretty frisky. I like having lots of money behind when someone flips the spew bit out of position.

Originally Posted by daven

OTB raise more like 60% of the time for balance.

-not sarcasm-
I think I'm missing something here. What are we balancing?

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Originally Posted by daven

OTB raise more like 60% of the time for balance.

-not sarcasm-
I think I'm missing something here. What are we balancing?

Typical blind stealing hands are Broadways and Ax, i.e. a range tilted toward high cards (T+). I believe what Daven means is that raising 22-66 here keeps opponents from donking into a 843 flop knowing our blind-steal range just missed completely.

Daven might have a different viewpoint on it. But that was my understanding.

I often blindsteal with pps, especially against short stacks because I don't have odds to just setmine.

Anyway, bluffing limped pots is way easier than trying to blow people out PF with a hand that plays like shit unless it hits. If the flop gets checked around I'm autobetting the turn and getting all folds a lot on a dry board.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Originally Posted by daven

OTB raise more like 60% of the time for balance.

-not sarcasm-
I think I'm missing something here. What are we balancing?

Typical blind stealing hands are Broadways and Ax, i.e. a range tilted toward high cards (T+). I believe what Daven means is that raising 22-66 here keeps opponents from donking into a 843 flop knowing our blind-steal range just missed completely.

Daven might have a different viewpoint on it. But that was my understanding.

10NL or less(and from what I hear, even higher limits)? Cuz if that's the case, Rarely are villains noticing range at all obviously, not to mention "blind Stealing range". Also, wouldn't a "typical" Blind Stealing Range consist of Axs, Broadways, and SC's, maybe Suited 1 gappers?
But more importantly, this isn't really ablind steal thing with two limpers right? <obv. assuming we are on the BTN w/ two limpers.

Its always harder to get paid with a big hand OOP than in position, because you have no choice but to advertise the strength of your hand to get paid.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Its always harder to get paid with a big hand OOP than in position, because you have no choice but to advertise the strength of your hand to get paid.

While this is true, in NL10 you pretty much get whatever the opponent's hand is worth. So your average donk might not notice the subtle difference between leading and getting raised vs. betting after getting checked to and getting check-raised.

Since our hand is so strong it's fine even OOP.

I'll go on record saying at $25nl and below I'll take a set to the bank any day I can flop the f-ker...

In position, out of position, 77 f-in karma sutra of set positions, sh!t I just made up a position...

Against 200K+ 10nl hands sets are a clearly +EV, don't much matter where the f-k they came from. I'll complete an SB or call a PFR w/ 15:1 odds, twice on Tuesdays and three times on any other day of the week...