Ranges on fishy tables?

I get kind of confused with how i should be playing on fishy tables and obviously these are places where you can maximise profit. I understand playing hands with position on these players is always a good thing but i'm unsure when it comes to calling ranges and 3bet ranges, i'm aware that postflop it's usually pointless to bluff or sometimes even cbet flops against such wide ranges i.e. 60-70/10 types that call whether they have air or a monster but how wide should we be cold calling OOP and what apart from the top of our range (if anything) should we be 3betting?

e.g.

You have 2 passive fish on your left, say 70/10 types, fold to flop cbet like 10%. How light should you be opening knowing they'll flat almost every time but rarely 3bet but will almost always call a cbet regardless of board texture.

What's the point of opening when they'll station you down anyway? This is when I start limping my drawing hands. I just move my PFR into my flop-bet. As in, don't put the chips in pre-flop, since it will only bloat the pot and will NOT eliminate opponents. Instead, over-bet the pot when you catch your flop.

What should you open with? Hard to say without knowing: What are your goals?
If your goal is to make a straight, then 3+ gappers are out of the picture.
If you want to catch a nut flush, then only suited A's or K's are worth playing.
If you want to make boats or quads, then PP are where it's at.
If you simply want to outplay your villains, the cards don't matter.

Hmmm interesting point, i guess as a new player i'm stuck in the 'OMG open limping is the devil' mode of thought, when clearly it can be useful given the circumstances. I guess my goal with these players on my left is to play a lot of 'implied odds' type hands and let them call off my value bets when i hit. My issue is when i don't hit it becomes pointless to cbet when you know you're getting called and it's very difficult to narrow their range. So it becomes a balance of choosing hands that are likely to play well postflop. If that makes any sense whatsoever lol.

Your last point is where i struggle the most. I'm by no means a good player but i do find it hard to outplay these morons when their range is so insane.

First off, avoid FPS (fancy play syndrome) in a multi-way pot. If 4 or more people saw the flop (including you), then bluffing is probably not viable. Since nearly every flop you face against these villains is multi-way, that means you wont get many opportunities to make any moves.

Trying to outplay a calling station with moves is futile. They don't know what a move is, much less how to make one. They'll certainly fail to notice when you're pulling a Mick Jagger on them. The most important rule of thumb when you are deciding to bluff a villain is to ask yourself this:
"Have I got any indication that this villain can be bluffed?"

Look on the bright side: you can play like a fit-or-fold robot against these villains and they'll exploit themselves with their own curiosity.
Remember: Having position is vitally important because it gives you the most knowledge. That knowledge can be used to fold your own hand.

Yeah i figured fit or fold is typically the best method against these players just needed to verify i wasn't spazzing out. On a side note. What exactly do these players think about when they play? I see so much random nonsense that i can't comprehend what goes through their heads.

e.g. I 3bet 60/47 CO from BTN with AKs. Flop AK3 rainbow. He checks, i bet 2/3 pot, he calls, turn 2, he min bets, i raise pot, he shoves, i call, he shows K9. This was full stacks. I just can't understand why they do this lol. Not that i'm complaining.

Originally Posted by jippo88

What exactly do these players think about when they play? I see so much random nonsense that i can't comprehend what goes through their heads.

e.g. I 3bet 60/47 CO from BTN with AKs. Flop AK3 rainbow. He checks, i bet 2/3 pot, he calls, turn 2, he min bets, i raise pot, he shoves, i call, he shows K9. This was full stacks. I just can't understand why they do this lol. Not that i'm complaining.

We all started as ignorant babies, who barely understood the rules and had a pathetic strategy. We saw only our own cards and... WE HAS A PAIR OF KINGS!!!! ALL-IN, ALL-IN, ALL-IN!!!!

By playing fit-or-fold, we present ourselves as exploitable. When we 3-bet our 88 pre-flop, then fold when the flop comes AKT villain is thinking, "Ha, I knew you were bluffing!" We know it's all a set-up for when we get in there and connect. We folded other pots when they were small, and induced our villain to bluff big. When we connect, we win the big pots.

Yeah that really helps. I just need to adjust my mindset. I forget to recognise that a lot of these loose players think beyond their own holdings into why i'm calling/raising them postflop.

They're not thinking of your holdings most of the time, they're thinking:

Why this donkey raising/folding? He hasn't even seen the flop. I'm going to at least call a min-bet to see if I flop a boat w/ my 74o. Shoot, there's a raise. Well, I'm already committed to see a flop, since I put my min-bet in. Aww yeah, I got a pair of 4's. I'm definitely calling that flop bet now, I might catch a set or 2 pair. check turn, I didn't catch anything, check river. I WIN!!! I knew he was bluffing! He always bluffs. I had a pair, man, what were you thinking? You bet when you couldn't beat a pr of 4's! Hahaha! You're a donkey bluffer. I pwn you.

These villains don't check hand history to see that you had an OESD w/ 2 overcards. They wouldn't recognize they were a huge dog when they put their chips in. They only see win = good / smart.

Yeah haha that sums up some of the tables i've played lately. Apparently bottom pair shit kicker is the new nuts on the flop.

Remember that fishy-wide ranges increase the variance of the games. Don't focus on the results of one or two hands, try to find some more macro patterns. If you're in a bunch of fishy games, thank everything that's holy and keep playing as solid as you can. Don't overgeneralize. Yep, it's high variance. Yep, you'll stack off with AA vs. 83o.

But you get to stack off with AA vs. 83o. Now that's cool.

As far as what your range might be, I'd consider limping the CO & BTN w/ most of the Sklnasky-Malmuth Table (even though it's for FR LHE). Be reminded that you're looking for nuts or near-nuts holdings to play a big pot after the flop.

With big draws, which you'll be playing a ton more of, you want to keep the pot small by checking in position. Call villains' OOP bets when you have the right price to call; use pot odds.. Don't even think about implied odds after the flop for now.

Something to think about: a pre-flop implied odds situation
When holding a pocket pair, your odds to catch a set (or better) on the flop are 7.51:1 (Doyle Brunson's Super System: table XXV). If the pot is already 7.5x the current bet, implied odds don't play; you're priced in to call. If the pot is smaller than 8x, use implied odds (call it 8x to make it easier, and we err on the side of caution in our implied odds calculation):
8 * {bet} - pot = Z
The smaller of the 2 values (our stack) and (amount of villain's stack we can win if we catch a big hand) is Y
We want Z to be bigger than Y.

gawd stop nut camping.

Originally Posted by bikes

gawd stop nut camping.

What adjustments would you make if you were sitting at a table of 65/10 calling stations?

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

What adjustments would you make if you were sitting at a table of 65/10 calling stations?

Play the top 40% of hands aggressively? Knowing I've got a stronger range?

Originally Posted by Robb

Play the top 40% of hands aggressively? Knowing I've got a stronger range?

Would you base your top 40% off of the S-M table, or Pokerstove, or something else? What is your base for 40% and what alterations do you like to toy with?

Do you use a 40% range from all positions or do you play a more limited range when OOP? Do you play your range as aggressively from all positions or do you play more/less aggressively when OOP?

Just making a point about "not nut camping," a la bikes, using some numbers. If they're playing every hand, we can open up a good bit, and our definition of "playable for a bet on 2 streets" can be refined too. We still abuse position and adjust to different players' styles.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Would you base your top 40% off of the S-M table, or Pokerstove, or something else? What is your base for 40% and what alterations do you like to toy with?

I have my own set of 5% chunks of hands I add in as I open up, developed from those sources (and other ranking schemes), plus a knowledge of what types of hands I can play well in certain situations. Knowing your own capabilities is important. If I don't like a certain hand, I don't play it as much or prioritize it lower.

I do know what hands I am going to play if I'm, say, opening 45% of hands or even 55%. I developed it for HU play, which is a great way to practice for this type of table.

I've stacked off with TPNK against fish because I was ahead of their calling range, nut camping be damned.

Many fish will pay over the odds to chase any draw. Others will call preflop with atc but play fit-or-fold on the flop. They bluff too much, or not enough. Like Robb said, look for patterns and exploit (same as any other player ldo). It's guaranteed you'll see some 0_o hands too so enjoy them.

Play strongly from position and widen your value range.

Changed my sig due to this thread, and some looking back through old posts to help me relearn pokerz. I had a LOT of fun with this thread a few years back. Enjoy. Laugh. And even learn a little.

Stations are *sob* so hard to play against!!

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Something to think about: a pre-flop implied odds situation
When holding a pocket pair, your odds to catch a set (or better) on the flop are 7.51:1 (Doyle Brunson's Super System: table XXV). If the pot is already 7.5x the current bet, implied odds don't play; you're priced in to call. If the pot is smaller than 8x, use implied odds (call it 8x to make it easier, and we err on the side of caution in our implied odds calculation):
8 * {bet} - pot = Z
The smaller of the 2 values (our stack) and (amount of villain's stack we can win if we catch a big hand) is Y
We want Z to be bigger than Y.

We want Z smaller than Y. We want to be able to get more than we need for 0EV.