A question for the veteran players...

I'm asking this in the context of 2NL which may mean that I'm overthinking this compared to the rest of the players.

When you're in position on an open-ended straight or nut flush draw and the villain(s) offer you a free card after the flop should you take it? Does it depend on whether it was a raised pot or a limped in pot?

Sure it may improve your hand for free, but its also advertising "I don't have anything and I sure hope this next card works out for me!".

How do pot-odds factor into this? I get a chance to win the pot for free when it is +EV for bets up to 31% chance to hit the open ended straight draw and 35% for the flush.

But if they are also drawing, I'm giving them a free chance as well, and their draws might be less likely to hit like say an inside straight draw.

I'm inclined to bet into this situation for two reasons. First they may think I've hit top pair or a set on the flop and second it might discourage them from trying their draw. In this case, how much should be bet?

I think you need to be a little more specific about your situation. Because each hand varies on the texture of the board and types of opponents. As a general theory I'd like to bet the situation when HU.

Yes it does matter if its a limp pot or a raised pot preflop. It helps narrow the range of hands that your opponent(s) may have.

In my mind pot odds don't really apply in a situation like this unless a player is forced all-in and there will be no future betting.

At 2nl the general population doesn't think about what you have but what they have. In any case getting into a habit of betting 50-70% of the pot will reduce their odds in calling

its villain dependent really. obviously checking is fine, so the merits of betting are what need to be considered. how likely is villain going to c/f, c/c, and c/r here, on different turns how likely is he to c/f c/c c/r or b/f, b/c b/r after flop action? these questions need information on villains range and how he plays that range which is most certainly different between limped and raised pots. its also affected by board texture and whatnot so its hard to give more exact answers.

if you want to explore further than that, post a few hand histories with reads on villains and such and we can go into weather betting or calling or whatnot is the best way to go

With fold equity and everything, I would bet aboug half the pot in this situation, but like dejection said, it varries based on the hand and other possible draws. If you have a strait draw on a board with 2 or 3 suited cards, then you could catch your card and still be behind.

depends on whether he's giving up
I'll tend to bet more flops than turns

If there are no others in the pot (just the two of us), I will place a bet to get others on draws out. And, to get more information from those left in the hand. Other times though, I will gladly take the free card if I think I have him on a range of hands that I'm not worried about.

My opponents play and the texture of the board tell me more of what to do.

What are you putting him on?

Think about it this way, if he checks he's saying to you he doesn't have anything, if you check you're saying you want to show down or you're giving up. The equity of a draw is static against a variable range of hands. Your likelihood of getting paid off is not. So if a weak hand has roughly the same equity against you as a strong hand, but won't pay you off when you hit, why would you let him realize his full equity with A high by letting him get to showdown?

Well say you have an oesd on the flop, and villain checks to you. Against the majority of his range you have 8 outs, which equivocates to ~32% equity. As we know a value bet is profitable when we have >50% equity against villains calling range. And a bluff is profitable when villain folds often enough. However, a bet in this instance having less than 50% equity against his calling range, can very well be profitable because (1) we have good equity when called, (2) he likely folds a good bit of better hands, so while we don't have the needed equity to value bet, this hand is profitable due to pot equity when called and fold equity. Which is pretty much the definition of a semi-bluff.

So without fold equity, then would be a -EV bet to make on this current street, as you are willingly putting money into the pot as the underdog, when you do not believe that he folds often enough to make this semi-bluff profitable.

Say the above isn't the case, and you do believe he folds often enough to make this semi-bluff profitable. Does that mean it's the best play? It depends. The EV of you checking isn't 0 because there are chances he is folding a hand to your flop bet, that might put in a reasonable amount of money as the dog had you checked back the flop and caught your straight on the turn/river. So the frequency of something like this occuring must be compared against the EV of the semi-bluff.

Not to mention, other factors must come into play such as the likelihood you get check/raised off of your hand, and are unable to realize your 32% pot equity, etc.

Anyways, say you do bet the flop because you feel he folds often enough, and he calls. The turn brings a blank, and he once again checks. You must once again run through the same analysis; however, keep in mind now that your equity has been reduced significantly. You still have 8 outs; however, now you only have 1 more card to complete your hand, which now equals ~16% pot equity. Given this reduction in pot equity, in order for another semi-bluff to be profitable you need even more equity as before (simply because you have less equity when called) to make a bet +EV.

So, as you can see it's really hard to say with extreme confidence what to do with these types of hands in a broad sense. As it really depends on numerous factors. However, the underlying concepts being that you need to consider your pot equity when called, your fold equity, extraneous factors such as being c/r'd off your hand, etc.

Just to cover betting a bit further... If you bet for value, it's because you have >50% equity against villains calling range. If you bet as a bluff it's because you expect villain to fold often enough to be profitable. The greater your pot equity, the less often villain needs to fold to have your bet bet +EV. The lower your pot equity, the more often he needs to fold.

Say you have 0% equity when called, and you bet 1/2 pot. Villains needs to fold 33% of the time to have a BE bet. Say you have 17% equity when called, villain now must only fold 14% of the time to a 1/2 PSB to have a BE bet.

Originally Posted by Parasurama

Think about it this way, if he checks he's saying to you he doesn't have anything, if you check you're saying you want to show down or you're giving up. The equity of a draw is static against a variable range of hands. Your likelihood of getting paid off is not. So if a weak hand has roughly the same equity against you as a strong hand, but won't pay you off when you hit, why would you let him realize his full equity with A high by letting him get to showdown?

Checking doesn't always mean you don't have something. Villain could easily check because he believe you will bet a wider range than you will call. I understand what you are saying about letting villain realize his full equity, however, checking back your draws in some spots could have good outcomes as well. Just because you check back doesn't mean you can't bluff the river some % of the time, and allow him to fold his weak range. It also allows you to realize your pot equity, and gain value from the top of his range when you catch on the river, or allow you to now put in anymore money into the pot when you were behind in the first place.

Not to hijack the thread but ....

Do you care how your OESD is formed? Does it matter if you have the connectors for the bottom two cards?

I guess it kind of depends which types of opening pair you play. I play abc poker so I only go down as low as TJ for my connectors (except late in a mtt). I'm not experienced enough to play 9T and know when the villain has a nut flush so I don't play hands with that possibility.

Originally Posted by DaGrinch

Not to hijack the thread but ....

Do you care how your OESD is formed? Does it matter if you have the connectors for the bottom two cards?

I don't think this is too big of deal, just keep in mind if anyone else may have the better straight draw/made straight in their range. But you got me thinking, so...

You have 67s on a board of 89Qr
-JT-Already has a straight
-Jx is going to have a draw to a better straight
-QJ having top pair + Draw

At a loose table in a multiway pot, I'm really not feeling too great about this hand. If I call a flop raise, it's because I'm really looking for a 5. If a T appears instead, and a lot of action happens, I'm probably folding.

As JR realized, it does matter. So you should keep in mind the value of your straight draw. If you have the bottom end of the straight draw, you need to realize that you aren't drawing the nuts and should be aware that even if you hit there is a possibility of you losing depending on the board. The same goes for chasing a straight draw on a flush draw board. Sure a straight is still a strong hand, but if flush draws are in your villain's range, then it might not be profitable to chase the flush draw because once again your draw could possibly be tainted, and to a second best hand.

Same goes for straight/flush draw on a paired board, etc.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by Parasurama

Think about it this way, if he checks he's saying to you he doesn't have anything, if you check you're saying you want to show down or you're giving up. The equity of a draw is static against a variable range of hands. Your likelihood of getting paid off is not. So if a weak hand has roughly the same equity against you as a strong hand, but won't pay you off when you hit, why would you let him realize his full equity with A high by letting him get to showdown?

Checking doesn't always mean you don't have something. Villain could easily check because he believe you will bet a wider range than you will call. I understand what you are saying about letting villain realize his full equity, however, checking back your draws in some spots could have good outcomes as well. Just because you check back doesn't mean you can't bluff the river some % of the time, and allow him to fold his weak range. It also allows you to realize your pot equity, and gain value from the top of his range when you catch on the river, or allow you to now put in anymore money into the pot when you were behind in the first place.

Yeah I meant just if you're reading actions completely straightforwardly, obviously board texture and reads are relevant to every hand. And I didn't even mean that you should always bet this situation, just wanted to show OP why it's better to be aggressive with draws especially when your opponent is showing weakness.

Along with position, how you play the OESD depends on two more things I didn't see above:

1. How many opponents are left.
2. How you got the flop.

I find it a lot easier to check/call and draw in multiway pots where folks are more tentative to bet since bets are expensive and are pretty likely to get called in at least one spot. HU, opponents will bet into you more when you try to check it down, and they often guess you're drawing and try to charge you for it.

For how you got to the flop, it matters whether you're in as the preflop raiser or as the flat caller. Because they have different ranges which will fit in with the board differently. As PFR, you're expected to have big pp's and AK/AQ type hands. As the flat caller, you're expected to have more small/med pp's, weaker Broadways, and sc's (depending on wide your flat call range is).

Consider this situation: LP raiser and a caller from the blinds. The flop comes JT5 raibow. Hero has KQ.

When Hero is the PFR, the BB knows he has a wide range, but the flop still favors the flat caller's range, and Hero is more likely to get called than on a Q52 flop.

When Hero is the flat caller, the LP cbet is likely to be a cbet flop, check/fold turn line. Hero can often check/call and get a free card for a second crack at the draw.

These may not be the greatest examples, but who's donking and who's cbetting matters. Donk bets and c/r's can really confuse some villains, so we can even use some of our OESD's to widen our ranges in those lines. In position, I almost always cbet as PFR since (if villain check/calls), I can almost always check behind the turn and get my free card if I want it. Like IOPQ said above: "I bet more flops than turns."