QQ BvB

Villain is 17/3.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($70.50)
Hero (BB) ($56.70)
UTG ($52.90)
UTG+1 ($50)
MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($56.15)
MP3 ($55.40)
CO ($30.90)
Button ($45.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
7 folds, SB bets $2, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4) 4, 9, 10 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($10) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero calls $7

River: ($24) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $24 | Rake: $1.15

This hand is tough I think. I probably would of reraised preflop.
But as played, I put the small blind on pocket 10's or 9,10 so he flopped a set or 2 pair and got scared on the river when the J fell, as he thought maybe you where drawing for the straight.

is he a 17/3 from the sb or in general? ie, is he likely to just raise you because its bvb?

If not, then reraising is horrible, and i like the hand as played.

I think you played this hand bad. By just calling each street, you do not gain much information about your opponent's range. He could have AA or KK, but for all you know he could have JJ or AT.

You should of 3bet pre-flop because even though he's 17/3, QQ is ahead, even if slightly, of his LP raises. If he comes over the top, you should think about calling and set-mining.

Basically, calling was bad because what do you gain from just calling? And when you hit a flop like this, you really do not know where you are in the hand. As played, you basically just have to check back the river. Betting would simply turn your QQ, which does have some showdown value against hands like AT or KT, into a bluff because only a big hand will call you on the river.

^^^ ignore this

slow early is fine, by the river you basically have no choice. He's either crushing you or folding his AK. When thinking about his range, his betting range is the one you want QQ to play against, not his calling range. Betting to find out if your ahead or behind will never be good.

Originally Posted by jyms

slow early is fine, by the river you basically have no choice. He's either crushing you or folding his AK. When thinking about his range, his betting range is the one you want QQ to play against, not his calling range. Betting to find out if your ahead or behind will never be good.

And what do you accomplish by calling each street? I think you unnecessarily put yourself into a WA/WB situation post-flop.

It's obvious that he's not set-mining, so what your plan to just call each street until he bet a scare card?

What range are you giving him? And what does betting accomplish vs that range?

Originally Posted by PocketJokerz

I think you played this hand bad. By just calling each street, you do not gain much information about your opponent's range. He could have AA or KK, but for all you know he could have JJ or AT.

You should of 3bet pre-flop because even though he's 17/3, QQ is ahead, even if slightly, of his LP raises. If he comes over the top, you should think about calling and set-mining.

Basically, calling was bad because what do you gain from just calling? And when you hit a flop like this, you really do not know where you are in the hand. As played, you basically just have to check back the river. Betting would simply turn your QQ, which does have some showdown value against hands like AT or KT, into a bluff because only a big hand will call you on the river.

So let me get this right. By just calling, hero's not getting enough information on opponents range, so this is why he should 3-bet. Then once hero 3-bets and villain comes over the top, fuck the information we just got, lets set mine without pot or implied odds.

I think I play this the same without any other reads besides 3% PFR

Even if the guy is a 17/3 a LP raise will be wide. Let's say 88+/AQ+ (can be even wider). He'll call 88-JJ and depending on your image, AQ. I personally don't mind that calling range against my QQ in position one bit.

Calling his raise makes you narrow his range or you enjoy playing a guessing game?

Originally Posted by tyrn

So let me get this right. By just calling, hero's not getting enough information on opponents range, so this is why he should 3-bet. Then once hero 3-bets and villain comes over the top, fuck the information we just got, lets set mine without pot or implied odds.

I think I play this the same without any other reads besides 3% PFR

I said he should "think" about set-mining. If they were deep enough, it wouldn't be a bad idea. You are getting value when he calls with his medium pairs, unless Hero himself is a total nit.

What I'm seeing is people putting all the emphasis on the general PFR of 3% when it's obv wider than that if he's opening from SB.

But tell me guys. What exactly is your plan by flat calling?

But tell me guys. What exactly is your plan by flat calling?

1. getting weaker ranges to bet
2. keeping weaker ranges in the pot
3. exercising our positional advantage

The plan is to make the most +EV play. 3-betting vs this player when he's already isolated is ridiculous. His FE isn't great and the range he continues with dominates us.


Flop comes and were 50% equity vs 99+, AQs+, AKo+ so we call. Come turn, we're 26% vs 99+. So we're marginal to call or fold, given a tiny bit of implied odds, call hope for free river. If villain bets here with that jack on river, ez fold.

Originally Posted by PocketJokerz

Even if the guy is a 17/3 a LP raise will be wide. Let's say 88+/AQ+ (can be even wider). He'll call 88-JJ and depending on your image, AQ. I personally don't mind that calling range against my QQ in position one bit.

Calling his raise makes you narrow his range or you enjoy playing a guessing game?

Do you really think a nit with 17/3 stats is calling 3bets w/88-JJ and AQ. Not very likely unless hero is a 3 betting machine, and I didn't see any of this info in the OP

Well Played imo.

PocketJokerz, go do some digest and article reading. This whole "betting to define your hand", "see where you are", or "gain information" has become quite tired and annoying to be honest. Go check out some of the posts in this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...it-t84100.html

There are some good posts in there that should cover the topic I just brought up (betting for information, etc). Also there are multiple other threads/articles here that likely explain it better.

Also, PokerJokerz, I'm glad to have you here at FTR. I was not trying to be harsh above. It's just that we get numerous individuals weekly that come in and put their rather dumb analysis on hands, and they usually bring up the "define hand", etc as their reasoning. THey are usually freetrollers trying to postwhore. You do not appear this way to me, and you seem to have put a decent amount of thought into your responses; however, they still seem a bit off base imo, and therefore that's why I'm trying to help with the links/thoughts.

My reasoning was that you would still be getting value on the QQ with a raise, albeit from a smaller range, but if you just call, you aren't sure of where you are in the hand and if you aren't sure or you have a sketchy idea, it's harder to make +EV decisions.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well Played imo.

I agree. I don't think this was the right spot to "raise to get info." I might have raised pf but it really depends on the villain and my table image.

Originally Posted by PocketJokerz

My reasoning was that you would still be getting value on the QQ with a raise, albeit from a smaller range, but if you just call, you aren't sure of where you are in the hand and if you aren't sure or you have a sketchy idea, it's harder to make +EV decisions.

If we just call, we actually let villain hang himself by continuing to bet with his c-betting range, and then his 2-barrell range. So we actually extract value from hands that we otherwise wouldn't get value from if we re-raised him and pushed him off the hand, since he'd only continue with the top part of his range.

Hope that makes sense

river is easy value if you bet something like $8

It does make sense, but I had yet to hear the root reasons for certain plays and my concept on getting value has been limited to expanding the pot when you have strong holdings.

But the root reasons seem to be (I am simplifying this):

Strong hands:
-Against multiple players, your equity decreases.
-Against fewer players, but wider ranges, your equity increases. It's quite simple when I think about it. A range gets weaker, equity-wise (balanced ranges are stronger in a different sense; Shania), as they expand. You want to have situations where the equity of your strong, or even marginal, hands increase.

Speculative Hands (Hands in which you want to take advantage of implied odds)
-These hands you want to play against smaller ranges because against wider ranges, you will be less likely to be paid off so the implied odds are low.
-Furthermore, unlike those stronger hands, you want more players in the pot with speculative hands because that increases your immediate odds and implied odds.

yet again, the longer the thread, the lesser the content

I'm so betting this river because people love to snap me off with Jx in this spot :/

Originally Posted by AFchung

Villain is 17/3.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($70.50)
Hero (BB) ($56.70)
UTG ($52.90)
UTG+1 ($50)
MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($56.15)
MP3 ($55.40)
CO ($30.90)
Button ($45.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
7 folds, SB bets $2, Hero calls $1.50

Flop: ($4) 4, 9, 10 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($10) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero calls $7

River: ($24) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $24 | Rake: $1.15

Unless his steal blinds % is like 35%+, I think you played this hand really well.

3-betting preflop is a really bad idea.. only worse hands fold. Using your position and letting him barrel seems like the best play because:
1. You are playing pot control in case he woke up with KK/AA here. 2. You get value from AK, PP type hands that will think they are good here.

I think betting for value on the river here is really thin. The scary board likely doesn't let AK call and I think AA/KK definately make crying calls. So checking behind is definitely where I'd lean.

Originally Posted by PocketJokerz

It does make sense, but I had yet to hear the root reasons for certain plays and my concept on getting value has been limited to expanding the pot when you have strong holdings.

But the root reasons seem to be (I may be oversimplifying this):

Strong hands:
-Against multiple players, your equity decreases.
-Against fewer players, but wider ranges, your equity increases. It's quite simple when I think about it. A range gets weaker, equity-wise (balanced ranges are stronger in a different sense; Shania), as they expand. You want to have situations where the equity of your strong, or even marginal, hands increase.

Speculative Hands (Hands in which you want to take advantage of implied odds)
-These hands you want to play against smaller ranges because against wider ranges, you will be less likely to be paid off so the implied odds are low.
-Furthermore, unlike those stronger hands, you want more players in the pot with speculative hands because that increases your immediate odds and implied odds.

I can probably even edit this further by saying that when we have strong hands, we want the following:

-Limit the number of villains (preferably HU)
-Build the pot to increase value on later
-Keep the villain playing a wide range to increase our equity

If the villain will call a 3bet with a wide range so that our Queens have a good equity, then we should 3bet because we are building the pot to increase future value (we don't have to worry about limiting the villains here). If he will not call a wide enough range to keep our Queens as a big favorite, then we should just call behind since we have position.

Is that the reasoning you're using here?

I believe spenda's point is that the J is about the best card possible for Hero. What hands could be continuing on the turn but shutting down on the river? Not any set - he's gotta think a bet will get some value given the two calls. Same for 88 or KQ that just made a straight. The river check basically rules out everything that beats hero, and a few ragged Ax hands might call a small bet.

Yeah, I don't mind a smallish/thinnish value-bet on the river.