preflop with good hand - raise how much?

i'm new to the poker scene (woot first post) and have trouble with finding the right amount to bet when i hold a good poker hand at preflop. since every situation is different, i guess i'll list out a few situations and would love for any type of constructive input

if you could, please discuss what you would do in early, middle, as well as late position. remember though, this is all preflop

1) if i have a wired middle pair (77), how much should i bet? i want to bet high enough so people fold so they dont improve their hands, but i still want some action

2) two overcards. honestly, i hate these starting hands because if i dont gamble with them, i feel guilty, but if i raise too high, i often end up losing (miss the flop and opponent raises high).

3) high pocket pair. (QQ KK AA). how much should i bet? i especially need help with these hole cards in early position, because i dont know the right sized bet to make, without revealing too much information about my hand

once again, thanks a lot for any input

With hands you think are best, it's often right to make relatively "standard" 3/4ths to pot sized bets. Out of position you likely do not want to build a pot with a very good hand, building a pot with a marginal made hand well lead to a lot of mistakes on later streets.

Pretty much the answer to all the questions you asked is it depends.

I think with more experience you'll start to realize that betting large (high) and betting small have very little difference in their effects as far as "Calling ranges" go. What I mean by calling range is that an opponent will likely call a pot sized bet with the same hands he'd call a half pot sized bet. Since we can never really know exactly what out opponent has, especially preflop and on the flop, we call our educated guess of that group of hands a "range."

If you raise a hand like AJ, AK, KQ, preflop, and you miss, one some boards you will want to fire a continuation bet (cbet). This is referring to betting the flop if your the preflop raiser, hence continuing your aggression. A board like Kd4s2s will likely have not connected with your opponents hand, and he will likely muck to a flop bet. On the other hand, a board like 7c6c5s is likely to have hit your opponents hand range, and it would be stupid to bet our overcards, as we are almost always getting called (there is always certain situations where betting that kind of board with nothing is good).

Hope that helped. Welcome to FTR!!

Originally Posted by AFchung

i'm new to the poker scene (woot first post) and have trouble with finding the right amount to bet when i hold a good poker hand at preflop. since every situation is different, i guess i'll list out a few situations and would love for any type of constructive input

if you could, please discuss what you would do in early, middle, as well as late position. remember though, this is all preflop

1) if i have a wired middle pair (77), how much should i bet? i want to bet high enough so people fold so they dont improve their hands, but i still want some action

2) two overcards. honestly, i hate these starting hands because if i dont gamble with them, i feel guilty, but if i raise too high, i often end up losing (miss the flop and opponent raises high).

3) high pocket pair. (QQ KK AA). how much should i bet? i especially need help with these hole cards in early position, because i dont know the right sized bet to make, without revealing too much information about my hand

once again, thanks a lot for any input

Hey, welcome to FTR. This is a good place to start.
I was in your position not more than two months ago.
Here are my thoughts... I'm going in reverse...

3) With AA/KK you are in great shape, bet it. I bet these from any position with standard bet being 3-4x BB depending on read of table, then add 1xBB for each limper ahead of you. You are trying to get to a showdown with one other player, not the whole table.

2) QQ-TT and AK, AQ, etc.... you really need to read up on position, as these are positional dependent. I recommend reading the beginners digest and other posts about starting hands... learn about position and then decide what to do...

1) see #2 but also, if you are playing SNG's (which is all i play) it really depends on your read of the table. At low blinds, I'll dump or limp small pairs in hope of setting. If I see aggression anywhere else on the table I'm often not going to bet them very far... they are too easily beat.

Remember, read, read read and learn, heck I've been here for two months and am still not winning 50% of the time yet... but I'm learning every day!

hi thanks for the replies

monty you said i should bet 3-4x bb and 1x extra bb for each limper. it is quite a standard bet and easy for me to use, but what if i'm in early position (first or second to act)? how much should i bet

Originally Posted by AFchung

hi thanks for the replies

monty you said i should bet 3-4x bb and 1x extra bb for each limper. it is quite a standard bet and easy for me to use, but what if i'm in early position (first or second to act)? how much should i bet

I raise 3.5xBB + 1BB per limper. So if I'm betting first, I open for 3.5XBB.

It's tough going after ISF has pwn'd the thread, but at the micros I open 77 for a standard raise from all positions, then use the 10x rule for calling rr's. And I do this for all pp's, even 22, even from EP. At the micros (NL10), it doesn't really limit the action all that much, and 3betting is less common than at higher limits.

But everything ISF said is true. Ignore it at your own risk. And I maybe full of shit.

Originally Posted by AFchung

i'm new to the poker scene (woot first post) and have trouble with finding the right amount to bet when i hold a good poker hand at preflop. since every situation is different, i guess i'll list out a few situations and would love for any type of constructive input

if you could, please discuss what you would do in early, middle, as well as late position. remember though, this is all preflop

1) if i have a wired middle pair (77), how much should i bet? i want to bet high enough so people fold so they dont improve their hands, but i still want some action

2) two overcards. honestly, i hate these starting hands because if i dont gamble with them, i feel guilty, but if i raise too high, i often end up losing (miss the flop and opponent raises high).

3) high pocket pair. (QQ KK AA). how much should i bet? i especially need help with these hole cards in early position, because i dont know the right sized bet to make, without revealing too much information about my hand

once again, thanks a lot for any input

Welcome! I'm also super new here, i'll pass on some info i've read from people so much better than me here (eg. ISF) so keep these 2 things in mind when reading this: 1 - general poker advice is NOT applicable in all situations. It can help you develop strategy, theory, reads, but it is never gospel. Good players do things in individual hands that might be seriously WTF, but because of image, specific reads, unpredictability, etc. etc. they did something that would get you shot (or stacked) if you did them regularly. 2 - position is very very important. Everyone says it, but do it! If your hand is iffy to put in a bet and you dont know what to do, look where you are on the table. If you are EP or blinds, FOLD! If you are LP, bet it! Playing ANY hand is easier on the button. Period.

If I am the first bettor preflop (eg. limped / folded to me, UTG), I will bet 4 x BB + 1BB for each limper. I do this with 77, AK, AA, or any hand i want to play. Point is, you don't want to bet 10BB when you have AA/KK, and 4BB when you have any other playable hand. I probably play 16-20% of hands, so good players can put me on a range with that info, but you won't know if i have 44 or AA. The more details i give, the more chance i will misdirect you and/or be torn apart... lol. Be solid, not predictable.

Again, listen to ISF. Bet / fold, and your most infrequent option would be to call. I try to almost never limp or call, one place i like to is when i have Ace-crap suited and there are already a few people ahead of me who have called. If i don't get at least 2 more cards to my flush, i fold. Even if there is an ace onboard, i will almost always fold. Chances are in the microstakes, someone else there played A-rag too, and guessing where you stand with 1 pair and no kicker in a 5 way pot sucks ass. Robb made a good point with a recent post where he listed some stats on some players from this site who are making a ton of $$ playing poker. They had fairly low VPIP stats (under 20%), and their pre-flop raise % was at least 75% of that number. That means, when they are playing a hand, they are typically raising it. Not playing weak-ass poker, playing most hands because "that last flop was 772, i should for sure play this 72!"

Last thing, something i've learned, sometimes you wonder if you're beat, sometimes you get that sick feeling in your gut (in other words, you know you're beat) and you're deciding whether or not to call someone's shove. Take a minute (and your fk'ing hand off the mouse) and decide logically. There will be a new hand in like 2 seconds if you fold. If you call and lose your stack, fine. But occasionally folding the better hand is a necessary evil with poker.

This seems like a good forum for newbie discussion, so (as always with my posts) tear it apart!

Good luck!

thanks again for all the input. i read all of it and decided to head off to the online poker tables for a little bit of fun. here were some dilemmas i ran into and really didnt know what to do

1. i understand position is important, but whats the worst hand you would play on the button? should i play hands like 10-3 off suit, 5-9 etc?

2. whats the minimum bet i should ever do? it's easy to just hit the raise button, since it goes 2x of the last bet.

3. when betting pre-flop, doesnt it reveal my hand strength? if i go out and lead with say a 5xbb bet, then everyone knows i have wired cards or two overcards. or am i just being paranoid?

4. is there anything wrong with limping in too much? when i took a look back at my previous gameplay, i felt as if i limped in quite a lot

5. open ended straight draws. several times i had 4 cards and needed to get the 5th one from the turn/river. thats when my opponent starts to bet and i shy away and just muck my hand in. should i be drawing for open ended straights?

Originally Posted by AFchung

thanks again for all the input. i read all of it and decided to head off to the online poker tables for a little bit of fun. here were some dilemmas i ran into and really didnt know what to do

1. i understand position is important, but whats the worst hand you would play on the button? should i play hands like 10-3 off suit, 5-9 etc?

2. whats the minimum bet i should ever do? it's easy to just hit the raise button, since it goes 2x of the last bet.

3. when betting pre-flop, doesnt it reveal my hand strength? if i go out and lead with say a 5xbb bet, then everyone knows i have wired cards or two overcards. or am i just being paranoid?

4. is there anything wrong with limping in too much? when i took a look back at my previous gameplay, i felt as if i limped in quite a lot

5. open ended straight draws. several times i had 4 cards and needed to get the 5th one from the turn/river. thats when my opponent starts to bet and i shy away and just muck my hand in. should i be drawing for open ended straights?

All good questions, and all are addressed in the Beginner's Digest. That would be a good place for you to find all these answers and lots more.

Afchung, while at the tables today I hope you tried some of your questions, and I'm hoping you're looking to learn more. I would recommend first go through the beginners digest here, it is the source of most of my success so far.

Originally Posted by AFchung

thanks again for all the input. i read all of it and decided to head off to the online poker tables for a little bit of fun. here were some dilemmas i ran into and really didnt know what to do

1. i understand position is important, but whats the worst hand you would play on the button? should i play hands like 10-3 off suit, 5-9 etc?

2. whats the minimum bet i should ever do? it's easy to just hit the raise button, since it goes 2x of the last bet.

3. when betting pre-flop, doesnt it reveal my hand strength? if i go out and lead with say a 5xbb bet, then everyone knows i have wired cards or two overcards. or am i just being paranoid?

4. is there anything wrong with limping in too much? when i took a look back at my previous gameplay, i felt as if i limped in quite a lot

5. open ended straight draws. several times i had 4 cards and needed to get the 5th one from the turn/river. thats when my opponent starts to bet and i shy away and just muck my hand in. should i be drawing for open ended straights?

Welcome to FTR. Don't get all crazy with T3 on the button. UTG I open 15 hands: AQ, AK and all pp's, all for a 3.5xBB bet. On the button, I'm not adding all that much: KQ, AT+, A9s and not much else. If you play tight enough preflop, you don't have to add a ton of hands to your button range.

#5 involves implied odds. If you don't know what implied odds are, start with looking at pot odds posts - implied odds is an extension of that concept.

#4 LoL. Here's a link to rant-post I made primarily about noobs and donkfish who limp too much. I think you should be raising about 2/3's of the hands you play minimum.

Robb's 1st Rant

Warning - it's a rant post, so it's not what you would call tactful. It's a strongly worded inspirational post geared toward getting noobs to play more aggressively both pre and postflop.

Keep posting. Read the Beginners' Digest - twice each. Then come back in a month and read them again. And good luck at the tables!!

Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

Originally Posted by AFchung

thanks again for all the input. i read all of it and decided to head off to the online poker tables for a little bit of fun. here were some dilemmas i ran into and really didnt know what to do

1. i understand position is important, but whats the worst hand you would play on the button? should i play hands like 10-3 off suit, 5-9 etc?

2. whats the minimum bet i should ever do? it's easy to just hit the raise button, since it goes 2x of the last bet.

3. when betting pre-flop, doesnt it reveal my hand strength? if i go out and lead with say a 5xbb bet, then everyone knows i have wired cards or two overcards. or am i just being paranoid?

4. is there anything wrong with limping in too much? when i took a look back at my previous gameplay, i felt as if i limped in quite a lot

5. open ended straight draws. several times i had 4 cards and needed to get the 5th one from the turn/river. thats when my opponent starts to bet and i shy away and just muck my hand in. should i be drawing for open ended straights?

All good questions, and all are addressed in the Beginner's Digest. That would be a good place for you to find all these answers and lots more.

Of course, my answers are based on my own opinion:

1. Unless you want to steal the blinds, if you are up only against the blinds. But still, those hands are too crappy if you get called, so the best advice i could give you here is to fold. Of course, depending on reads, if both blinds are super tight i would advice you to raise.

2. Pre-flop the minimum raise is what people told you here. Post-flop depends on what hit the felt, on what you have, if you're drawing. Usually half the pot/3/4ths of the pot. If you've got a made hand that is beatable and you think someone is drawing on you, give them incorrect odds to call.

3. Depends. Try not to bet the same amount everytime. Sometimes bet 3 BB, sometimes 4 BB, and mix the hands you have when betting (ie: dont make them think you'll always bet 3 BB with big unpaired cards and 4 BB with big paired cards). Mix up your play, dont fold TOO much pre-flop, limp in with decent marginal hands so they dont get too scared when you make a PF raise. When i say TOO much it doesnt mean that you should go loose and play any ace-rag/suited-connectors and stuff. But dont go folding everything except for AA to JJ or you risk becoming too predictable.

4. Yes, there is, depending on the betting and stuff. Limp in with hands that might make you money, big money if they hit. Not with something like J-5 off suit. If you hit the J you might end up losing a lot of money to someone with AJ, for example. Still, raising or folding is best. Calling is 2nd best. Remember, you asked if theres something wrong with limping in too much, and the first word i said is yes. Be really picky with the kind of hands you're limping.

5. You call relying on pot odds. With open ended straight draws, you're going to hit your cards one out of 4-5 times. How do you calculate the odds?

Lets say you have to call a bet on the turn to see the river. 8 cards help you, the remaining ones on the deck dont. Dont consider mucked cards. So, 4 cards on the felt + 2 on your hand, 6 cards. There's still 46 remaining, so 46 minus 8 cards that help you = 38 cards dont help ya. You divide 38/8 then you reach 4. something. So for you to call a bet of 100 chips, the pot-size has to be 400. If you have pot odds to call and you have a good draw, CALL it. Its +EV (positive expected value) in the long road.

Hope that helped. =)